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BATMAN #681


Price: $3.99
iFanboy Community Pick of the Week Percentage: 23.5%
675
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Avg Rating: 3.7
 
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Comments

  1. Avatar photo Viewt says:
    November 24, 2008 at 5:08 pm

    Finally! Although, I guess we still have to wait a couple more months to find out what REALLY happens to Bruce in Final Crisis. Oh well. At least there’s another issue next week. 

  2. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    November 24, 2008 at 5:13 pm

    Assuming that’s Bruce in FINAL CRISIS.  I believe RIP takes place before FINAL CRISIS starts. 

  3. Avatar photo CGPO says:
    November 24, 2008 at 5:23 pm

    Morrison confirmed in an interview with IGN.com a month back or so that it is Bruce in Final Crisis and that we find out what happens to Bruce in FC, not RIP.  Although that’s not to say that RIP shows us where it’s going.  We’ll see in 2 days!

  4. flapjaxx says:
    November 24, 2008 at 5:32 pm

    It seems that RIP is more of a psychological impact, whereas Darkseid’s minions will physically take Bruce away in Final Crisis. So…apparently in between Batman #681 and Final Crisis #1 Bruce decided to become Batman again, only to be taken away. It’s a very imperfect situation, but the exact circumstances of things like that don’t bother me. As long as each individual series is good within its own logic, I don’t care if inter-series continuity can only fit together in a somewhat flawed, convoluted way.

  5. flapjaxx says:
    November 24, 2008 at 5:34 pm

    ^Oh, I might as well mention that the next two issues (682 and 683) will apparently explain how RIP links to Final Crisis.

  6. Avatar photo Chris Rohling says:
    November 24, 2008 at 5:48 pm

    No matter what logic problems are about to arise, I’m still excited for this issue.

  7. Avatar photo eagle6002 says:
    November 24, 2008 at 6:39 pm

    Here’s an interview:

    http://www.comicmix.com/news/2008/04/29/interview-grant-morrison-on-final-crisis-and-doctor-who/

    It says:

    CMix: And how does Batman R.I.P. fit into the timeline of Final Crisis?

    GM: It takes place before [Final Crisis]. R.I.P. will lead into Final Crisis. Whether the Batman in Final Crisis is actually Bruce Wayne, you’ve got to see for yourself. It could be Nightwing, it could be Tim. Tim deserves it, you know, he chose the life and he’s worked hard. Nightwing would be fun, but a very different Batman, more smart-ass. 

    Also:

    CMix: "Crisis" tends to mean death for DC characters. Are we going to get big deaths this time around, too?

    GM: I’d rather not kill characters. I like to give fates worse than death. 

    However, in the ign interview, morrison says:

    IGN Comics: So the Batman we see in Final Crisis is Bruce Wayne? 

    Morrison: Yeah, Bruce Wayne is Batman. But not necessarily how you know him. I don’t want to blow the end of RIP. [laughs]  

     http://comics.ign.com/articles/902/902992p6.html

  8. Avatar photo SixGun says:
    November 24, 2008 at 6:40 pm

    bout time

  9. Avatar photo Eyun says:
    November 24, 2008 at 6:48 pm

    ooh!…. it’s nearly over…. ooh!

  10. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 24, 2008 at 7:28 pm

    Yes! We’re this much closer to Denis O’neil’s issue!

  11. flapjaxx says:
    November 24, 2008 at 7:42 pm

    Yes! We’re this much closer to the end of snotty complaining!

  12. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 24, 2008 at 7:51 pm

    Ha!

  13. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    November 24, 2008 at 7:52 pm

    Ah…What would the world be like without snotty complaining and the people who call them on it?

    I just hope this issue is as solid as the last one.  I am also eager to see how this ties in with Final Crisis.  My opinion of Morrison varies from issue to issue (superman 3D???), but if this comes together as well as I hope it does this will be his masterwork (IN MY OPINION).

  14. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    November 24, 2008 at 8:07 pm

    I love me some snotty complaining and when people call people on it!!!  Add that to the things I am greatful for this Thanksgiving!

    As Conor put it, I am excited-slash-terrified and will more than likely end up reading this 2 or 3 times before I give it my score.  

  15. Avatar photo comicdork37 says:
    November 24, 2008 at 8:24 pm

    This series has turned out to be much different that I had expected. Between the all the Batman history and confusing plot I should have stopped with the first issue but I just wanted to understand it all so much and figured I could catch on. I was wrong. Only after many hours on the internet do I even have the slightest idea of what has been happening thus far. I am excited for this to end so that I can go back re-read the entire arc and hopefully make some sense of it all on my own. 

    As someone not reading Final Crisis (and not planning on it) I am not not sure what all this talk about ties between the two stories is all about. In the end I just hope that I can enjoy RIP without knowing about Final Crisis and that I will finish the issue with more answers than questions for once.

  16. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 24, 2008 at 8:27 pm

    *sigh* simplicity is so under-rated.

  17. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    November 24, 2008 at 8:54 pm

    @comicdork37-no one is saying you won’t get a good story without reading this and FC.  Just saying that Morrison stated that Batman’s "final fate" will be decided in FC.  He did the interview with IGN comics on August 26th if you want to check it out.  

  18. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    November 24, 2008 at 9:30 pm

    @drakedangerz – Assuming he’s telling the truth.

  19. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    November 24, 2008 at 9:46 pm

    @Conor-Very true sir.  It’s amazing how you can make me doubt everything in so few words.  🙂

    I hope its not naive of me to think that he wouldn’t lie.  But the more I think about it, the more it would make sense to do that.  Best way to protect the ending of your story is to fib.

    I love the word fib, its so cute >__<

  20. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 24, 2008 at 9:50 pm

    Anyway, the cover’s not bad.

  21. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 24, 2008 at 9:51 pm

    And we get an extra 8 pages. Hope it’s story and not ads.

  22. Avatar photo micahmyers says:
    November 24, 2008 at 10:00 pm

    so excited for this.

    i guess if it is bruce in final crisis, then all the post-r.i.p. stuff in robin and nightwing is also post-final crisis.

  23. Avatar photo comicdork37 says:
    November 24, 2008 at 10:35 pm

    @drake – If RIP doesn’t wrap up nicely and requires me to read Final Crisis to find out Batman’s "final fate" I am going to be so pissed off. Maybe I miss understood from the beginning but I thought this was "the final batman story," hence the name RIP. This is why I don’t usually read DC and Marvel’s "big events" because they never end and in my opinion are usually just a lead in to the "next big event". I guess I am the minority as I tend to like one-shots, self-contained mini-series, OGNs and elseworld-type stories instead of the big event stories.

  24. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 24, 2008 at 10:38 pm

    " I guess I am the minority as I tend to like one-shots, self-contained mini-series, OGNs and elseworld-type stories instead of the big event stories."

    I’m right with you.

  25. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    November 24, 2008 at 11:06 pm

    @comicdork37 – RIP isn’t the last Batman story.  Gaiman is writing those issues.

  26. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 24, 2008 at 11:13 pm

    Very intrigued on how this is going to play out. I’ve been loving this RIP storyline, but I must admit I am just as confused as anyone else on here. In the long run, and after many many attempts at reading the HC for this, this will make sense as time moves on.

    It will be interesting to see how this is going to play out considering in FC it is Bruce. I think we can stop saying ‘oh well it might not be Bruce, Morrison could be lying’….it’s Bruce Wayne in the batsuit okay? I doubt Dan Didio and others would not want to have the original Batman in their biggest event of the year. Considering how much rumors we’ve heard about FC getting drastically changed for the ending, it’ll be weird if anything will be changed for this Morrison title.

    Continuity problems or not, this will hopefully be a great end to a very intriguing story.

  27. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    November 24, 2008 at 11:40 pm

    Please make sense, please make sense … *fingers crossed*

    " I guess I am the minority as I tend to like one-shots, self-contained mini-series, OGNs and elseworld-type stories instead of the big event stories."

    I’m right with you."

    I’m starting to think like this also. A story without an ending isn’t really a story, is it?

  28. Avatar photo balsalm says:
    November 24, 2008 at 11:46 pm

    I got back into Batman with Grant Morisson’s first issue #655 and I have read from the beginning up to the current issue of his run and it isn’t really too hard to understand what’s going on.

    Sure the refrences might of been some trouble, but there is nothing that would fully impend you from fully understanding what’s going on. I think that I atleast have a good understanding of what’s occuring and I can’t wait to see how R.I.P. concludes and what happens to the "Batman of Zur En Arrh."

  29. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 25, 2008 at 12:21 am

    "Sure the refrences might of been some trouble, but there is nothing that would fully impend you from fully understanding what’s going on."

    Then why am I confused?

  30. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 25, 2008 at 1:16 am

    I think most people are subconciously getting these vague references get to the best of them.

    This is a very coherent plot when you get right down to it. It just doesnt help that Bruce is out of his mind, whether on drugs or going insane, and that the last issue focused on the Joker. Sure the Joker is insane, but when it comes to Morrison he’s bat (get it pun?)-shit crazy.

    If you get the references out of the picture then I think this is a much more servicable plot for readers.

  31. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 25, 2008 at 2:01 am

    Well, for the sake of avoiding polemics I’ll bow out of this one and just read the book. I’ll write a review maybe.

  32. Avatar photo robbydzwonar says:
    November 25, 2008 at 2:46 am

    Wow, it’s only Monday and this issue has more than 400 pulls already.  I’m glad I got five copies on reserve at my local comic shit-box store! 

  33. Avatar photo Kartoffelkopf says:
    November 25, 2008 at 5:42 am

    Whay have you got 5?

  34. Avatar photo fleaman says:
    November 25, 2008 at 7:34 am

    So after rereading the last issue something occurred to me.  Batman unmasked with the Joker in the room.  So… does this mean he knows Batman is Bruce Wayne?  I’m sorta new to the DCU and I am not sure if he already knew that or not.  I know the story hasn’t wrapped up, but it seems like an unusually large number of villains now know his identity.  I wonder how this is not going to create problems for the next Batman.

  35. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 25, 2008 at 9:45 am

    @fleaman: We mentioned it last issue that yes even though Joker might know who Batman is….he most likely doesnt care.

    Joker never seems to care who was under the mask. I think, he thinks, that Batman is just a single person and the person under the mask doesnt make a difference. As he said in Arkham Asylum when someone said to take his mask off he stated: ‘Oh dont be so damn predictable, that is his face!’

  36. Avatar photo AlexG says:
    November 25, 2008 at 9:48 am

    The references don’t bother me at all, it’s the timing of all this that bothers me. I think RIP and Final Crisis would be much more powerful stories if they were read in a single volume. I’ve been thinking a lot about the trades vs. singles discussion last week (or the week before?) and I realize that this is probably a much bigger motivating factor for me than I realized. BTW–what’s up with the rumors of Final Crisis editorial re-write?

  37. Avatar photo WilliamKScurryJr says:
    November 25, 2008 at 10:26 am

    Just saw the preview on Newsarama..

    http://www.newsarama.com/php/multimedia/album.php?aid=24367

    NOYCE! Doesn’t look like Tony Daniel at all, which is a huge benefit in my book.

  38. Avatar photo s1lentslayer says:
    November 25, 2008 at 1:06 pm

    Did anyone get an early copy? I’m just gonna flip through it at the store to see what the hubbub is about

  39. Avatar photo cutty says:
    November 25, 2008 at 3:03 pm

    @Next – agreed 100% about the joker.  They touched on it in the movie and I thought it really rang true, the Joker likes having Batman around

  40. Avatar photo Kory says:
    November 25, 2008 at 9:06 pm

    I’ve been 50/50 with RIP.  Some things I liked, other things I didn’t.  I’ll wait and see how it ends before I pass judgment

    I’m with TheNextChampion, I’ve always believed The Joker knows Bruce is Batman, but refuses to acknowledge it because he enjoys the cat and mouse game they play.  I’m also of the opinion that Commissioner Gordon knows as well that Bruce is Batman.

  41. Avatar photo dusman7 says:
    November 25, 2008 at 9:52 pm

    I can’t say I’m excited about this issue.  The story is so confusing, I can’t imagine I’ll understand this one either.  My hope is that I can gather the issues, read them in one sitting, and make sense of it all.  If not, I hope there are interesting results.  I’m just kind of waiting to see what the new status quo is.  Even if the transition is messy, I can still hope for a good future for Batman.  After all Spiderman’s transition was a horrible mess, but the stories are excellent now.  Let’s hope for the same with Batman, whoever he ends up being

     

  42. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 25, 2008 at 11:26 pm

    @Kory: I believe Gordon knows Batman is Bruce as well. In the end of No Man’s Land he hints that he might have figured it out years ago, and in Year One he said he couldnt see them because of his glasses….but they are so close to eachother how can you not tell?

    Still we’ll know fully with this issue, I mean if he is stuck with Talia and Damien from last issue; he should know soon enough.

  43. deger says:
    November 26, 2008 at 9:20 am

    i am going to chime in and say I think Batman of Zur En Arrh is pretty awesome and I could follow that guy around for a while…  and is it me or does it seem to have the same outfit as "Red Robin" in the Robin title?

    I personally can’t wait for my stack this week 

  44. Avatar photo OttoBott says:
    November 26, 2008 at 1:12 pm

    @Champion – Is Year One cannon though? I get confused.

     It’s 12:10 pm central, and still no reviews. *sighs* Will some one please spoil this for me already?

  45. Avatar photo Alexferrer says:
    November 26, 2008 at 1:36 pm

    I’ve read it and I love it, but…

    I admit I still don’t get what R.I.P. stands for.

  46. Avatar photo robbydzwonar says:
    November 26, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    I just read this comic twice and I still have no idea what the hell is going on!  It show Batman climbing on to a helicopter as Dr. Hurt (who is or is not Thomas Wayne) is trying to escape and then the damn thing just blows up!  No bodies are found.  Then it fast forwards six months to see one of those Black Glove henchmen dudes torturing a Gotham City police officer while mentioning something about Commisioner Gordon that didn’t make too much sense either.  I don’t understand what all the hype is about, but I did manage to get a copy with a variant cover!!  YAY!!

  47. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 26, 2008 at 2:04 pm

    Utter trash. I reserve the right to take that back though. I’ll re-read the all of R.I.P twice then write my review. But so far, trash.

  48. Avatar photo OttoBott says:
    November 26, 2008 at 4:01 pm

    CBR published spoilers for those of us who didn’t feel like picking it up. I’m not going to say anything except I’m glad I haven’t really followed this and feel like “possibly the most shocking revelation in 70 years” was intentional/misleading hyperbole to the highest degree. Curious to hear what Conor thought of it though.*shrugs* I don’t know. I’ve not read anything of this, so maybe I’m missing the context, but I’m glad this is out of the way. I’d love to start picking up a Batman title now.

  49. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 26, 2008 at 4:09 pm

    I dont know what all of you are smoking 🙂

    This, I feel, is one of the greatest Bat-stories ever put in comics.

  50. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    November 26, 2008 at 4:13 pm

    Some spoilers:

    Very, very interesting.  I generally enjoyed the issue, but I was left with a few questions that I hope some of you can help me with.  I like how they tied in the third batman as the chopper pilot.  Batman deducing that an attack of this kind is inevitable.  Joker pointing out to the entirity of the black glove that they are about to get their asses handed to them.  The international club of heroes showing up to help out Robin and tying in with what has been happening in the Robin series by telling him he did some good work keeping the city from tearing itself apart.

    @robbydzwonar – I believe what the thugs are saying is that if Gordon’s boys are all that are left to protect the city they will be fine because Gordon and his boys (like the one handing there) can’t stop them.

    1) WTF is up with the Manbat things attacking Jezebel’s Jet (word play can be fun)?  I am not familiar with them.  What are they and how did they get there?

    2) Who exactly is this Dr. Hurt fellow?  If he isn’t Thomas Wayne, John Mayhew, or Mangrove Pierce, then who is he?  Or is he actually Mangrove, but is too insane to understand that?

    3) Is Batman dead?  Obviously, that is the question we are all supposed to be left with.  I assume he isn’t, but I would love to hear any opinions and/or supporting evidence that you may wish to offer.

    4) Why is Zur En Arrh written in reverse on the last page?  Am I missing some hidden meaning (I often do)?

  51. Avatar photo OttoBott says:
    November 26, 2008 at 4:28 pm

    @Champion – Yeah, I just read your review. It was very, very high praise for what’s been broadly maligned (where I read, anyway). Those kind of reviews kind of make me want to check it out though, just to see what I would think of it. From what I understand of the plot and the conclusion, I think I’d end up on the hater’s side of it, though. *shrugs*

    Still, sounds like an interesting read, at least. At least the yarn didn’t bore, eh?

  52. Avatar photo Viewt says:
    November 26, 2008 at 4:58 pm

    *Spoilers follow* 

     I thought Zur En Arrh was "Zorro in Arkham," referencing what Martha Wayne says in the Epilogue? Good question about it being backwards, though. Maybe an anagram?

  53. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    November 26, 2008 at 6:04 pm

    @Stuclach-The Man-Bat army was from the "Batman and Son" arc that started off Morrison’s run on Batman a few years back.  In that arc he was fighting an army of Man-Bats that Ra’s daugther was in control of.  I take that scene to mean that she took revenge on Jet for what she did to Batman, which she swore to do right after the helicopter exploded.  I can’t answer the rest of your questions because I dont know the answers!!!! 😛

    I loved this issue, it was just crazy goodness.  I am still fuzzy on Hurt, but I think we are supposed to be.  Morrison and DC want us not to know so that it can set up for future storylines and what not.  At least thats what it seems to me.  As much as I enjoyed this, I am even more excited for whats going to happen next.  Particulary how we get from here to Final Crisis.  

  54. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    November 26, 2008 at 6:24 pm

    @drakedangerz – Thank you for your thorough answer.  I had no idea about that.  Damn I love this site.

  55. Avatar photo Kory says:
    November 26, 2008 at 6:58 pm

    So that happened.  I didn’t like RIP overall.  Maybe I’m too dumb and I don’t understand what Morrison was going for.  Perhaps someone could enlighten me.  I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I may drop Batman until G-Mo leaves.

  56. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 26, 2008 at 7:59 pm

    @Kory: Well Gaiman is writing the next issue and Morrison is coming back for #683….so you get like a month of relief from him I guess.

    I think the whole point of RIP was to show a bunch of different things. Mainly:

    A) Bruce is the most cunning and smartest person in the DCU

    B) No matter how far you take him down, Batman will never die (as stated in the first part of this arc)

    C) Give us an inside look into the mind of Bruce (that has been clearly the motivation of the last 28 issues with Morrison)

    D) The Joker will always be the smartest person in the room (at least that’s what I gathered from this arc)

    There’s more but those are the strongest points Morrison made with me at least for RIP.

  57. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    November 26, 2008 at 8:10 pm

    @TheNextChampion – How can A and D both be true?

  58. PatK says:
    November 26, 2008 at 8:20 pm

    I believe that Dennis O’Neil is writing the issue and that Gaiman is solicited to write the Batman issue in Feb 2009. Gaiman starts his 2 issue mini in Batman #686

    Dennis O’Neil

  59. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    November 26, 2008 at 8:20 pm

    HAHAHA, he got you there TheNextChampion!!!! 😛

    But yeah, I wouldn’t say Joker is the smartest in the room; just the craziest.  The wild card.  And because of that, he will be the deadliest.  Hurt thought he could control the Joker, thought he was smarter and had him figured out.  Obviously he was wrong, and the Joker reminded him of that by killing his loser friends

  60. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 26, 2008 at 8:34 pm

    @stuclach: Gah, sorry about that. The lack of the edit button made me realise I mistyped my response.

    I ment to say: A) Batman is the smartest person in the DCU while D) The Joker is the smartest villain in the DCU.

  61. Avatar photo eagle6002 says:
    November 26, 2008 at 8:46 pm

    It was very good… but in no way what I wanted out of this final issue.

  62. AndyL says:
    November 26, 2008 at 9:32 pm

    HELP@!

     SPOILER:

     

     

    Can someone please post what the hell happened? I read somewhere  that Dr. Hurt is Satan? Can someone plot this baby for me?

  63. Avatar photo Simmons says:
    November 26, 2008 at 9:53 pm

    I just want RIP and all its tie ins in one big book i can scratch my head over

  64. Avatar photo captbastrd says:
    November 26, 2008 at 10:08 pm

    ok, I previously read one issue of the RIP story. I was, of course, confused as it was one of the middle issues and I dismissed it as being too confusing for me. I rethought my stance and then read every issue of RIP (excluding the tie-in issues outside of the main book) and thought I was set, that it was all, for the most part, making sense to me. Then I read this issue. I quit.

  65. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    November 26, 2008 at 10:09 pm

    @TheNextChampion – No worries.  I got the gist of what you were saying.

    @AndyL – Let me see if I can summarize it for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_rip.  That should do it.

  66. Avatar photo Kory says:
    November 26, 2008 at 10:16 pm

    @TheNextChampion- All those points you listed are things that an average person already knows about Batman.  I didn’t need a story about Batman being attacked psychologically to know he is the most cunning person in the DCU, and I think every writer before G-Mo has dissected Batman’s psyche. 

    I thought this issue would give me some answers and I got nothing.  After reading the issue I put it down and shrugged because I had no idea what I had just read.  But what do I know.  This could lead to someone else being Batman and lead to some good stories.  But at the moment I feel a little cheated.

  67. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 27, 2008 at 12:47 am

    Other then the idenity of Dr. Hurt, I dont see what other questions weren’t answered.

    Plus this is an arguement I’ve been reading all over the internet. Do you guys really think Batman was going to die? Seriously, that is the general concensious to the internet community on why this ‘sucked’…..God I cant believe reading a comic book was suppose to be that simple to people….Watchmen is praised for being smarter then the average comic….but RIP? Forget about it apparently.

  68. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    November 27, 2008 at 1:10 am

    So, after all that, we don’t even get to know the main thing we all wanna know — who is Dr Hurt? I’m not surprised, because nothing else in RIP has been written in a strait forward/clear way, so why would we get a satisfying ending? Overall, I thought the arc was part awesome & part utterly incomprehensible (which pretty much sums up what I think of all Morrison’s writing).

    @Champ — Maybe RIP was "smart" but you can’t compare it to Watchmen (there’s not much that you can), mainly because I’ve never heard of anyone reading Watchmen & not grasping the plot. Some people don’t like Watchmen, but everyone who reads it, knows what happens. Check this thread alone, & the trend of people having no idea what happened in this story continues. Maybe Morrison is the smartest dude in all of comics, but as a writer, if it’s SO common for people to not understand what they are reading, then I don’t really see how that can be a GOOD thing.

    And if you want my 2 cents, the reason people have a problem with his narratives is he deliberately writes them fractured & all over the place, like a deliberate confusing style. Like he is trying to squeeze in way too many concepts & ideas into a box where there is no room for them ALL. Like, he’s trying TOO hard.

    But, I LOVED his Joker in this arc. =D 

  69. jxc says:
    November 27, 2008 at 1:31 am

    To all the people saying we don’t know who Hurt really was, um, Batman’s journal pages on the pages after the reveal tell you. You’re just not taking it literally enough.

  70. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 27, 2008 at 1:42 am

    @Wade: Well sorry that Morrison is trying something different and trying to make YOU the READER think about something in a plot. Again, like Watchmen or any other complex plot I can think of, they want you to think about something before you go into the issue/trade.

    But if you want the same old, same old…..just read Deadpool. Which I will whole heartly endorse on all fronts as well 🙂

  71. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 27, 2008 at 1:56 am

    the Red and Black recurring motif also remains ambiguous. The fate of both Batman and the Joker remain ambiguous. Batman survives with his wits intact as the journal indicates but … how? (And who the hell ends a story with a cliff hanger?!) Actually other than the circuitous retcon of a decades old obscure Batman lore tidbit (yellow-alien Batman) nothing is answered.

    Oh wait, Morison IS a genius. You’re entirely right. He did use the cliché "he knew all along" gimmick without any foreshadowing whatsoever. Yes, how so very clever. I’m completely blown away by Grant’s ability to cop the hell out and still be hailed as a genius. "And for my next trick, ‘it was all a dream’". And how clever to randomly make some dudes appear out of nowhere to save Robin’s ass. Absolutely genius! All hail the superior IQ of Grant Morison! "Imagination is the fifth dimension". Wow! How so very profound and new age! I just had an orgasm from Morison’s intelligence!

    Oh and for those of you who imply that the obscure continuity references are only peripheral concerns? The frigging book ends with Zurh En Arh in big red backward letters! It’s pretty much the entire story dammit!

    Oh and some other things never got resolved? Who was the mysterious bum from parts 1 and 2? And what about Gordon who was sneaking into Wayne manor an issue or two ago? Oops, I guess Morison ran out of pages? Oh well, he’ll still get paid and pass off as the best thing since sliced cheese. Ah! The life of a comics rock star! Yeah, that’s the way you do it. Money for nothing and your chicks for free.

    I could go on… Where the hell is my "most shocking revelation in 70 years!"? You self important bald punk!

  72. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 27, 2008 at 1:59 am

    I’m ok now…

  73. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 27, 2008 at 2:23 am

    And what about Bruce’s parents and Alfred being promiscuous junkies?

  74. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 27, 2008 at 2:29 am

    @Jupiter:

    A) The red and black is the theme of the whole story. Red and Black symbolizes the Black Glove and represents the insanity of Bruce while he is drugged up. Joker says it perfectly in this issue on why it works on their level, but not on Batman’s term. In fact I loved that scene btw with Joker getting hit by Daimen. Totally felt like a cartoon moment, but he gets his debts due because he made fun of the red and black montrae.

    B) The fact that Batman knew all along was most likely Morrison’s overall point of this title. You didnt like the fact that Batman is and always will be 2 steps ahead of everyone else? It basically defines on who Batman truely is.

    C) The mysterious stranger was most likely a figment of his imagination. The trigger that starts his decent into his Zurh En Arrh alter-ego.

    D) These random group of dudes your talking about was introduced in the very beginning of the Black Glove. Unless you totally skipped on those fabulous issues of the International Batmen then I can guess why people we’re confused on them.

    E) Gordon went to Wayne Manor to get straight answers off of Bruce on these allegations that the Black Glove insinuated. Dr Hurt did say he did have the paperwork that could totally ruin his reputation as Bruce Wayne. I cant say I can go into a fictional character’s mind, but it could also work that if Gordon knows who Batman is….he most likely wants to help him.

    F) Zurh En Arrh are the first syallbles to the sentence: Zorro in Arkham. The last sentence Bruce ever heard his father spoke before Joe Chill killed him. He said ‘what?’ at the end cause he didnt hear the sentence fully.

    There….any other problems you need solving?

  75. Indycwf says:
    November 27, 2008 at 6:25 am

    TheNextChampion has given an excellent summary. I love stories which create room for thought, interpretation, and debate. Do we really need another in your face/paint by the numbers story we will all soon forget.   

  76. Avatar photo cutty says:
    November 27, 2008 at 10:11 am

    LOVED this issue and this arc.  Anyone who is confused should really go back and read Morrison’s entire run.  At least, go back and start reading when Tony Daniel jumped on, it gives the story some more depth.  To me, Morrison and Daniel’s run on Batman is 2nd to only Scalped as the best comics of the year

  77. Avatar photo cutty says:
    November 27, 2008 at 10:22 am

    @indycwf – agreed.  I get the sense that people are angry that either Batman didn’t die or there wasn’t some HUGE revelation.  Sometimes setting your expectations to something gets in the way of just enjoying a story for what it is

  78. GUILTRIDDEN says:
    November 27, 2008 at 10:54 am

    I enjoyed this story but have not been reading detective should i be?

  79. Avatar photo Cooper says:
    November 27, 2008 at 11:12 am

    Detective has been good, but not really relevant to the whole RIP thing. You don’t need to read it to get this. I wish I knew what you did need though. I enjoyed this, I just wish I could grasp the whole picture. Maybe I need to read the whole run.

  80. Avatar photo FACE says:
    November 27, 2008 at 11:39 am

    It’s not that I needed to see Bruce Wayne die to enjoy this arc. What I really wanted was to finish RIP and feel like I got it. Now that I’ve skimmed the 80+ comments here I almost can. The story is thrilling, but the method of delivery was just incomprehensive. Maybe it could work better in film? I’m beginning to think that Morrison’s true motive was making us think two steps ahead (perhaps, being made to think like Batman himself?), and not reminding us that Batman is always two steps ahead.    

  81. Avatar photo Viewt says:
    November 27, 2008 at 11:40 am

    @Cooper, yeah, reading some of Morrison’s earlier Batman stuff definitely helps with this issue, especially. If I hadn’t read the Black Glove TP, I wouldn’t have known who any of those people were who helped out Robin.

  82. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 27, 2008 at 12:05 pm

    Well the RIP storyline is going to end after Dennis O’Neil’s, Neil Gaiman’s, and another Morrison Epilogue stories. I know that sounds stupid that we need to have a few more issues to fully end the story, but those stories are there to reflect life without Batman and his overall mythology of the DCU.

    I believe that was another point Morrison wanted to make in this RIP story. Trying to fully prove what life is like without Batman and how much of a difference he actually makes in Gotham City. Cause somethings we’ve wondered would this city be any better without Batman….Considering the more ‘super’ villains like Joker or Poison Ivy never came along until Batman showed up.

  83. Avatar photo eagle6002 says:
    November 27, 2008 at 12:59 pm

    @ The Next Champion

    Well, I have to say that Watchmen and this arc are completely different in the way they get the reader to think. Watchmen leads the reader to focus on the themes and motivations of the characters while this one more or less forces the reader to contemplate the plot and what actually occured. Also watchmen is very easy if understand whether or not you have just started reading comics or if you’re a veteran. This arc is extremely difficult to understand if you do not know much of the history of batman. IMO

  84. Avatar photo eagle6002 says:
    November 27, 2008 at 2:08 pm

    Also, if you’re confused, read Templar’s explanation in the comment section of his user review.

  85. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 27, 2008 at 3:07 pm

    Okay maybe I took a little to the extreme saying this was as good as Watchmen. But still, I had just as fun with RIP as I did with Watchmen….Maybe in the long run people will remember Watchmen more then RIP, but I will still claim this to be one of the best Batman stories ever written.

    I still think both are just thought provoking, even in different ways you have to think for both titles.

    I just hope the Itrinity reviews this in the most adult way possible. All the other sites have not gone the route of ‘This sucks, why did I waste my time with this?’ type of thinking. There might be some mistakes with the overall run of RIP, but to me this is as perfect as a Batman issue your gonna get.

  86. flapjaxx says:
    November 27, 2008 at 5:31 pm

    ^I had more FUN reading Morrison’s Batman run (through 681) than I did reading Watchmen, and I might say that it was more interesting and caused me to think about more than Watchmen did. But I definitely don’t think this story is on the shortlist of genre- or medium-defining works. GREAT run, though. I don’t see it having that much influence, but I personally liked it a lot more than Long Halloween, for instance.

  87. flapjaxx says:
    November 27, 2008 at 5:39 pm

    @jxc: I agree. What Bruce writes in his journal is supposed to be the answer of who Dr Hurt/the Black Glove is. It’s worth noting, however, that Bruce gives his answer in the form of a question, though. Note all the question marks at the end of the last few sentences of Bruce’s journal. Even he isn’t sure about what’s going on. And Hurt doesn’t really act like an entity like that should act–caring about how a helicopter is piloted, for example? So terrestrial. It doesn’t really matter, though. People will scream that they "need" to know every answer for sure and see conclusive proof of it. But you don’t. In a way it remains somewhat imaginative this way, while still grounded in reality (because we don’t see proof of the phantastic entity that Bruce suspects Hurt to be at the end). It’s not a perfect ending; it’s not what I think the best ending would have been. But it’s good enough. I love that some people are still saying "Look, you can interpret it as being Bruce’s father!" or "It’s Chill–he’s the last guy you see and he’s ‘been there since the beginning’ like Hurt says!", etc etc. We SHOULD be resistant to the answer Bruce’s journal gives us. That’s perfectly natural and expected of us.

  88. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 27, 2008 at 6:24 pm

    @Next: Dude akmost half of your explanations are speculation. And yes it’s great that Batman knew everything. But totally unoriginal and had no foreshadowing. Bad writing. Morison tries to pass off ambiguous as smart and fails.

  89. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    November 27, 2008 at 6:58 pm

    I took the repeated red and black mentions/hints as a clue that Jezebel Jet was working for the black glove.  She has black skin and red hair.  Not that common.  I assumed the Joker was trying to clue him in (or just trying to screw with him by putting that doubt in his mind).

  90. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 27, 2008 at 8:32 pm

    @Jupiter: All of my points, other then C maybe dont seem to be speculation…..It just seems like you didnt read this at all.

    Besides it’s your opinion he ‘sucks’ anyways, so 😛 on you.

  91. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 27, 2008 at 8:34 pm

    *Darn, ment to say ‘none of them are speculation except for C’. Damn edit button.

  92. Avatar photo Kory says:
    November 27, 2008 at 11:20 pm

    My problem with the ending is that I was promised "the most shocking revelation in Batman’s 70 year history".  What was the big reveal that was supposed to "shock" me?  Was it that Dr. Hurt is Mangrove Pierce?  Or was it that Jezebel Jet is the Black Glove?  Sorry, but I’m not "shocked".  I didn’t get an answer to Batman’s fate at all.  Instead all I get is some "Zurr-En-Arh" means "Zorro in Arkham" phrase that doesn’t really tell me what happened.  Instead I’ll have to read another 6 months of delayed books just to get an answer.  This is definitely not one of the best Batman stories ever told, "Heart of Hush" is infinitely better than this.

    This was the first stuff I have ever read by G-mo, and I have to say I’m not impressed.  Several times Jezebel asked "do you get it", and all I have to say no, I don’t get it.

  93. Avatar photo WilliamKScurryJr says:
    November 27, 2008 at 11:31 pm

    This ended notwell.

    Many times over the course of GMo’s run, the word balloons didn’t seem to match up with the actions of the character in panel, and I think that is a weakness in his scripting — it’s always been, since the days of JLA. Factor in the fact that we don’t know who most of these characters are, or their motivations, or their speech patterns, or… anything, you have a disconnect between this reader an the intended gravity of Batman’s villains (save the Joker, the one spot here that worked).

    This was too convoluted in comparison to any other Batman story of the last 25 years to be taken seriously as a watershed moment for the cape and cowl.

  94. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 27, 2008 at 11:48 pm

    I still dont understand what you guys wanted here….Seriously, unless you wanted Batman dead I dont see what else you were expecting from this.

  95. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    November 27, 2008 at 11:53 pm

    @Champ – I’m not saying comics (or any fiction) should be strait up & simplified, I’m just saying, look how many people are confused by the PLOT of RIP. I’m not talking about any hidden subtexts or themes or whatever else, I’m talking plot. How things get from point A to point B. This should be clear in any story for MOST people to enjoy it (IMO). I love Deadpool obviously, but it is a pretty simple book, so to say that I should go read Deadpool, if RIP is "too much" for me is a bit of an insult, bro.

    I get the feeling that some Morrison & RIP lovers have a superiority complex about being the chosen few who are smart enough to understand what they are reading. But, my point is that some people are happy to read a deliberately unclear narrative & plot & just fill in the blanks for themselves (with guesswork, reading the internet for explanations) & some people are old school & expect a story to be a story — everything you need to be on the page, without having to re-read & study it 30 times over.

    Also — was the story called R.I.P. because Batman "dies" at the end? Or because he was buried in the coffin, that he escaped from? And, what was "the biggest revelation in 70 years" for Batman? Batman having a back-up persona? Hurt being Bruce’s dad? Does anyone know (without guessing)?   

     

     

  96. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 28, 2008 at 12:08 am

    @Wade: I didnt mean any insult to you, but obviously people who are getting confused by this shouldnt have read it then….I’ve read comments on this since part 1 and all I’ve heard is that ‘this is too confusing’ or ‘I dont get it’…..Well you tell me to stop reading something cause I think it sucks, then why dont you stop reading something if your obviously having a hard time reading it?

    Again I’m not trying to make you feel like an idiot, trust me your smarter then me in a lot of ways…..Just that if you didnt get the story then….I dont know what else to tell you or others…

  97. Avatar photo Kory says:
    November 28, 2008 at 12:13 am

    @TheNextChampion- Oh, I don’t know, and ending maybe, or some answers and not more questions.  When I buy the conclusion to a story arc, I just, you know, want a conclusion. 

    So since you understood this story answer some questions for me.  What was the most shocking revelation in 70 years?  What happened to Batman?  Is he dead, is he in Arkham, or is he just M.I.A.? 

    I feel like I should get some sort of answer.  Just say his body was never recovered, that’s all I would need. 

    I wanted some sort of closure and all I got was a gimmick to set up another event which kinda angers me. 

  98. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 28, 2008 at 12:13 am

    On this page of comments only there are at least three different conclusions drawn as to the identity of Dr. Hurt.

    … Just saying.

  99. Avatar photo eagle6002 says:
    November 28, 2008 at 12:15 am

    I guess the shock was the truth behind the death of Bruce’s parents (see the explanation of r.i.p. in the comment section of templar’s user review). Its so difficult to find this though, as it requires the reader to know tons about the back story of batman. DC should come out with an annotated version of r.i.p. in the trade so people understand the references and can piece together the story themselves without having to look stuff up. Like I said earlier, I thought the story was extremely good, just not what I wanted nor what I expected.

  100. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 28, 2008 at 12:21 am

    @Kory: Batman is obviously MIA. I admit that ending fell a little short, but obviously we’re going to figure out either A) What happen to Bruce very soon or B) He might never show up. Plus if you’ve been listening to Dan Didio’s interviews he even tell us himself that ‘Batman might show up to battle for the cowl himself’….So it’s a hint for that storyline, but obviously we havent seen the end of Bruce.

    Here’s something I think we need to address the ‘shocking revelation’ thing I keep hearing. Is it apparent that DC might have lied with their summaries or tag lines? They lied constantly with these summaries over the last couple of issues (like saying Daimen would be involved when he clearly wasnt) and Countdown is a pretty good example that overtime DC had to constantly change their advertisement. We dont know what this shocking reveal was going to be, but it seems pretty clear to me this is where Dan Didio and WB stepped in with Morrison and his story. Obviously WB didnt like the idea that Batman was going to ‘die’ when they got the biggest film out at the time…So maybe this was the huge change in the story that had to happen here.

    Oh and for a guy who says ‘I got was a gimmick to set up another even which kinda angers me’…and still picks up Secret Invasion and will pick up Dark Reign as well….That’s a pretty nice double standard there 😉

    @Jupiter: Dr. Hurt revealed his idenity in the pages of this issue…Sorry you cant handle that it’s an obscure name/character.

  101. Avatar photo Simon says:
    November 28, 2008 at 12:23 am

    I thought I understood this Run, but reading The Next Champion really put some things into perspective. I´ll have to re-read the whole thing again.

    I was really pleased with Batman knowing all along about Jezebel. I thought that was the most obvious and ridiculous thing when she realized he was Batman just by looking at his shadow with her hands on his ears. WTG Morrison! 

    I guess Batman pulling the old Switcheroo on the monk explained everything on this story…

     

  102. Avatar photo Kory says:
    November 28, 2008 at 12:29 am

    @TNC- I’m not reading Secret Invasion or Dark Reign.  I despise events that setup more events.  There’s no double standard with me.

    Quick question.  If Batman is obviously MIA, then  what is this Zorro in Arkham stuff?  Please explain because G-Mo’s stuff is too over my head.  God I should have never dropped out of community college.

    (Those last two sentences were sarcasm)

  103. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    November 28, 2008 at 12:33 am

    @eagle6002 — For you to even say that DC needs to put out a "handy booklet" that explains RIP, proves my whole point. 😛 

    @Champ — The thing is, I liked RIP for the first 2 or 3 issues, & for most of Morrison’s whole run, I liked it. I wouldn’t have stopped reading RIP because of that, & also because I have been collecting Batman comics for a long time & have never dropped it, no matter how bad it’s gotten over the years. Right up until the end, I was hoping it would all come together in the conclusion, & there would be a pay off. But, instead we are left with more foggy revelations & no conclusive or satisfying answers to important story points. But, I do agree with you, if you don’t like something — don’t keep reading it & then complain. If this story was on any other title/character, I would have stopped reading it 2 or 3 issues ago.

    I read that explanation in Templars review & if it was true, it would explain RIP, but there is some contradictions in that & what I read in the pages of RIP … but, I guess that doesn’t prove anything, lol.

    I was just flipping through my issue again (trying to decipher it, I feel like Indiana Jones reading ancient sanskrit on some old temple wall) & I came up with a quote that may explain who Dr Hurt is, and RIP in general. 

    After Bruce accuses Hurt of being Mangrove Pierce, he replies: 

    "No, I skinned Mangrove alive & wore him to Mayhew’s party. I am the hole in things, Bruce, the enemy, the piece that can never fit, there since the beginning."

    …

    Cue wacky sound effects. 

  104. Avatar photo Kory says:
    November 28, 2008 at 12:35 am

    @TNC- …Wait a minute "Dr. Hurt revealed his idenity in the pages of this issue…Sorry you cant handle that it’s an obscure name/character."

    Dr. Hurt- "I skinned Mangrove Pierce alive"   "I am the hole in things, Bruce,  the enemy, the piece that can never fit, there since the beginning"

    Boy that sure revealed who he is.  Not.

  105. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 28, 2008 at 12:36 am

    @Kory: Sorry for the insinuation ^^;

    Zorro in Arkham is the last 3 words Bruce ever heard his father said. But he didnt hear fully what he said cause he said ‘what?’ at the end of the issue. So what did he hear? Only the syallables of those words and it sounded like ‘Zurh En Arrh’. Bruce must’ve kept that in his mind all his life and when he got to the point where he was going to get his ‘insane’ version of him self (aka the purple pants eater outfit) he code named it Zurh En Arrh and it’s also the trigger point.

  106. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 28, 2008 at 12:40 am

    @Kory…..again: Okay so we dont know who Dr. Hurt is!

    Jesus is that going to eat you alive and kill you!? When Jeph Loeb introduced Hush/Tommy Elliott he made it pretty obscure at the end who the hell Hush was…..Then we later find out who he is. We’re going to get an explaination sooner then later is what I mean. Morrison must be doing something right cause we are talking about it like it’s the Bible or something!

  107. Avatar photo Kory says:
    November 28, 2008 at 12:41 am

    @TNC- The "Zorro in Arkham" stuff confused me because I thought it was a hint that Batman was imprisoned in Arkham.  That’s why the ending frustrated me, is he MIA or locked up.  I knew about the trigger word, I just thought it was also a clue to his whereabouts.

  108. Avatar photo Kory says:
    November 28, 2008 at 12:44 am

    @TNC- Yes it does bother me.  After six months I want some answers, not more questions.  That’s why I won’t watch Lost and I’m ready to quit watching Heroes.  I’m not a fan of that kind of storytelling.

  109. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 28, 2008 at 12:47 am

    Hmm…..Then this wasnt for you! 🙂 Now I get it!!!

  110. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 28, 2008 at 1:12 am

    So first you defend R.I.P by saying it was all explained and out in the open and then when someone points out the Dr. Hurt problem you defend it by saying so what?

    I think someone bought in to the G-Mo persona more than he did his writing.

  111. Avatar photo Muady says:
    November 28, 2008 at 1:29 am

    "But, instead we are left with more foggy revelations & no conclusive or satisfying answers to important story point"

    ^by Kory^

     Well, yep. It depends on what kind of reader you are. From an academic-oriented standpoint, this is fantastic. 

    I mean, when Grant Morrison’s trots around plugging that Dr. Hurts identity is the most "shocking" ever in the Batman mythos, a lot of people want that to mean some sort of concrete character(Which I am myself leaning towards Joe Chill in that regard). But the way Morrison writes it,  I’m begining to suspect that the shocking reveletion wasnt meant to be one of those tried-again character reveals. Dr. Hurt’s identity doesn’t need to be a "who", but a concept: what he finds at the very limit of his nigh-unlimited capability to intellectually reason evil and injustice out of the world is a character that is unrepentently evil, wholly unpredictable, and unexplainable, something that he just can’t make SENSE of in order to do away with. . .a being that ID’s with the Devil, even tho it might not be literally so. If all the good Batman tries to do in the world only ends with such a revelatio, I’d say thats pretty damned shocking. In an existential sense, of course, since it truly undermines Batman’s purpose; not in the "omg my father was really a depraved criminal" sense. 

    I mean, maybe its not for you. Its just that time and again I’m astonished that so many people so irately fault such stories (Morrison isn’t the only who does this time to time) for being so vague. Its for more constructive to think about why the book is the way it is, rather than to be bothered by it or pissed off that you didn’t get what you thought you were going to.  

  112. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 28, 2008 at 1:40 am

    @Muady:…..You lost me at nigh-unlimited lol No I’m kidding, great insight to this issue (plus your helping me which is a plus 🙂 )

    But let me say this, yes the reveal of Dr. Hurt was pretty vague….But why should we care who he is? He is a guy who broke Bruce down and almost got away with killing him. He just didnt know Bruce was prepairing for his attack since 52.

    I hope we see more of Dr. Hurt and I hope we never figure out who he is.

  113. Avatar photo Muady says:
    November 28, 2008 at 1:45 am

    Hehe, I think the argument might be that Grant Morrison told us we should care about who Dr. Hurt is. 😉

  114. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 28, 2008 at 1:46 am

    What gets my goat is that by being flashy and amibiguous and adopting a persona for self promotion purposes Grant is hailed as a genius while other quiet dudes are slugging away at making their stories clear and understated but go completely overlooked. Grant may be smart but it’s a snooty kind of smart. In my opinion, what can not be explained clearly is not properly understood.

    Take Scot McCloud for instance. He takes some of the more complex concepts in art and clarifies them breezily. THAT is genius! But it’s not flashy. It takes way more skill to make complicated things simple than to complicate simple things.

    If it weren’t for this sort of BS I’d just let it slide.

  115. Avatar photo Muady says:
    November 28, 2008 at 2:03 am

    Well if you want to call Grant a snooty kind of smart, are you sure there might not be a snooty kind of antielitism at work here as well?

    🙁 

  116. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    November 28, 2008 at 2:06 am

    "It takes way more skill to make complicated things simple than to complicate simple things."

    Exactamundo.

    @Champ — You’re right about the Lost comparison, I liked the first season of Lost A LOT, but stopped watching after season 2 because after 2 full seasons, I want at least SOME answers, not way more questions. Which is kinda the same thing with RIP, by the end we get some unclear "answers" & a lot of important story questions answered VERY unclearly or not answered at all. I think this is what pisses people off & leaves them feeling unsatisfied.

    It’s kinda the story telling equivalent of the writer setting up all this stuff, then pointing over the reader’s shoulder & saying: "Look, there’s a bear over there!" … you turn to look over your shoulder & nothing is there, & when you turn back the writer is running away.

  117. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    November 28, 2008 at 2:19 am

    Oops, kory made the Lost comparison, not Champ. I musta typed @Champ outta habit in this thread. 😛

    Anyway, we probably won’t change each other’s opinions on RIP, so why don’t we go talk about another comic? lol. What else have we all read this week? 

  118. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 28, 2008 at 2:42 am

    "Well if you want to call Grant a snooty kind of smart, are you sure there might not be a snooty kind of antielitism at work here as well?"

    Fair question. Not sure if you direct that at me personally or just generally. I’d say if there is any antielitism it’s reactionary in nature.

  119. Avatar photo Kory says:
    November 28, 2008 at 8:16 am

    There’s also a little "oh, I can’t help you’re too dumb to get this" elitism that rubs me the wrong way with this story, so yes I’m rejecting this holier than thou artsy crap.  I enjoy artistic intellectual stuff as much as the next guy, but I felt Morrison was being abstract just for the sake of being abstract.  To say that by not liking this story I don’t like intellectual storytelling is unfair.

  120. Avatar photo Kory says:
    November 28, 2008 at 8:19 am

    I will say one thing I did enjoy about this entire story, and that is The Joker.  He’s the reason I gave this a 2 rating.

  121. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 28, 2008 at 8:54 am

    Yeah, I’m with Kory on this one.

  122. Avatar photo micahmyers says:
    November 28, 2008 at 9:04 am

    i think it is funny that no one is talking about damien throwing joker’s ambulance off a bridge. i know joker isn’t dead, but that just seemed like a scene everyone would be complaining about. the Joker was just done away with so quickly after his big speech.

  123. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    November 28, 2008 at 9:58 am

    I agree, micah, but I guess in this type of story, a key player/character being swatted out of the story like a fly, is "normal". Anything goes, in the wacky world of G-Mo!!

    I also agree with kory’s last posts.

    PS — Morrison is writing the next 2 issues of Batman (according to DC comics.com) & it will be out next week. So … maybe we will get some answers? Am I a fool to keep hoping? 

  124. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 28, 2008 at 10:04 am

    "Am I a fool to keep hoping?"

    The solicits seem to hint that the next two issues are simply a recap.

    I’m done with Batman until this blows over. I’ll just buy the two O’neil issues.

  125. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 28, 2008 at 10:57 am

    We got two O’Neil issues and we got two Gaiman issues before Morrison comes back fully on the title.

    Did anyone get in this issue too that this takes place after the most recent Robin issues? A lot of people have been questioning when the hell does titles like Robin and Nightwing take place during RIP…so now we know Robin was before #681 while Nightwing is after #681.

  126. Avatar photo Kory says:
    November 28, 2008 at 11:10 am

    G-Mo is writing #682 and #683.

    Dennis O’Neill is writing #684

    #685 is a "Faces of Evil" issue written by Paul Dini

    #686 will be written by Neil Gaiman

  127. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 28, 2008 at 11:31 am

    Gaiman, O Neil, and Dini on Batman? Sounds like a win win here.

  128. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 28, 2008 at 12:46 pm

    @Kory: G-Mo isn’t guaranteed to be coming back…

  129. Avatar photo Kory says:
    November 28, 2008 at 1:06 pm

    @JumpingJupiter-  That’s music to my ears.

  130. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 28, 2008 at 1:14 pm

    heh heh.

  131. Avatar photo JD says:
    November 28, 2008 at 1:20 pm

    I want my $3 back.  The art was muddy, but decent – everyone tended to look a little too similar.  The story was the most contrived, predictable, inane thing I’ve read in quite some time.

    I was so sure this was going to be the iF pick of the way, and am glad that it isn’t – that alone, has restored my faith in the guys behind the site.  While this book, has shown me that event books are best left unread.

  132. Avatar photo THEHOCHE says:
    November 28, 2008 at 2:36 pm

     

     

    Dini and Nguyen did it better.

  133. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    November 28, 2008 at 2:49 pm

    Morrison is indeed coming back to the book, after the Battle for the Cowl.  Although if the rumors at cbr are true, he is having some problems with Didio about FC and might not stay.  Can’t trust rumors all too much though.  But last I heard he said in interviews he was returning after someone "wins" the battle for the cowl.

  134. Avatar photo WilliamKScurryJr says:
    November 28, 2008 at 3:28 pm

    OK, we might have a bead on "who" was trying to kill Bruce, but… why?

  135. Avatar photo ActualButt says:
    November 28, 2008 at 4:41 pm

    I loved this story, I love Grant Morrison, and I really hope he comes back to the book. Although, honestly if he doesn’t, that’s fine with me, as long as he starts writing something else that I’m reading.

  136. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 29, 2008 at 1:25 am

    @William: I have two theories on the subject (hooray more for me to talk about! lol)

    A) Dr. Hurt or whoever he is…..just wanted Batman to suffer. He obviously wanted him to go crazy from day one since he was the one who made Bruce go threw that military test mentioned earlier in Morrison’s run. In hinsight he is responsible for Bruce being quicker then his enemies cause he was willing to get the ‘Zurh-En-Arrh’ personality in him.

    B) The Black Glove is a betting organization. We’re being told again and again, whether here or the earlier ‘Island of Mister Mayhew’ arc (or Batman #667-669) he makes bets on the outcome of events. In the previous arc he betted that all of the Batmen would die while in RIP he bet that Batman would go insane and eventually die.

    It could be a combination of the two however.

  137. tazz says:
    November 29, 2008 at 1:56 am

    I’m sorry but this story was horible.  I just stopped caring half-way through and just couldn’t  get back into it.  The ending was rushed and jumbled..probably should go back and re-read to try and figure it out, but don’t care enough to make the effort.   I agree with the comment above that Morrison was being abstract for the sake of being abstract..just a total uninteresting mess.  A real miss for me.

  138. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    November 29, 2008 at 3:54 am

    The weirdest part of all this to me (apart from the story) is how divisive this story is. So many people are baffled by it etc, & don’t like this non-conclusion, yet it’s the 2nd highest POW % on this site. People who I usually have similar taste in comics with, love it, & some don’t. Some people say they understood it, but hate it, & some people admit it makes no sense to them, but they still dig it. I can’t remember any comic provoking so many different reactions.

    @Champ – You said: "In hinsight he is responsible for Bruce being quicker then his enemies cause he was willing to get the ‘Zurh-En-Arrh’ personality in him." — What do you mean by that? 

    I thought about it & the only real reason I’m disappointed with this arc is we didn’t find out who Dr Hurt is (for sure. Check the above posts & there is multiple guesses). It’s like if you watched a mystery movie & after watching for 2 hours, you don’t find out who the killer is. I’d forgive the wacky style of story telling (even though it’s not my thing) if we at least got that.

  139. Avatar photo FACE says:
    November 29, 2008 at 5:37 am

    Seriously, the whole "reading Batman makes me smarter" mentality has to go. If comics actually made people smarter Champ would have figured out the difference between ‘then’ and ‘than’ by now (someday you’ll thank me).

    It’s a common practice for writers to provide some piece of clarity to their story. At some point the writer’s obliged to turn the keys over to the reader and allow them to put the pieces together. This story fails in that because it only provides loose footing on which to draw conclusion.

    The only bit of existensialism within RIP is trying to distinguish between what’s really happened and what’s just Bruce’s imagination. If there’s existensialist gain to be had here, let it be in the judgements of the players and not whether this is all only a figment of Bruce’s misaligned psyche.

  140. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 29, 2008 at 10:39 am

    @Wade: I ment that Bruce was willing to go under an extreme psychological tests in order to get one step ahead of his enemies. It takes place in ‘Speed Medicine’ (or Batman #672) by Morrison and it gives us some answers in the way why Bruce went so insane during this arc. Obviously not all, but some….plus the general that administers the test looks an awful lot like Dr. Hurt. So if it is Hurt, then he is responsible for Bruce to be so smarter then his enemies.

    @FACE: I felt a lot of clarity after reading this issue. It answered a lot of questions that was raised during this arc, but also Morrison’s other 19 issues of his run. Didnt anyone like it that most of the story points in these previous issues were addressed here? To me, other then the identity of Dr. Hurt, all of the answers were given to me here. If you guys absolutely hated this ending then I dont know what else to say….I’ll think it’s brilliant and you’ll think it’s shitty at best.

    I cant wait for when this comes out in trade, cause I’m sure all of you will pick it up and keep going on with the hating 🙂

  141. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 29, 2008 at 12:35 pm

    I won’t pick this up in trade. I’m trying to sell my copies of the single issues.

  142. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    November 29, 2008 at 12:42 pm

    @Champ — I won’t be buying the trade. I NEVER buy trades when I have already bought the issues. Why buy a story I already have?

    I still don’t get what you’re saying. You’re saying that having the isolation tests etc. & going a little nuts makes Batman smarter? I don’t understand the logic. It made him come up with the whole "back-up personality" thing, sure, & that helped him beat the villains in this arc (I’m still not sure why he let himself be sent crazy etc, if he saw it coming all along …). But, are you saying Hurt’s tests made him smarter in general, & it’s why he is always one step ahead of his enemies? If you’re saying that, I disagree.   

    Also, who do you think Hurt was? Sorry, if you already said, there’s too many posts above to find it! I’m curious, because I’ve been reading all over the interweb & people who all claim to have understood this story, are saying he is someone different — the devil, Thomas Wayne, Joe Chill, Mangrove Pierce … even Darkseid.

    There is more to come in this storyline, & it’s not over, so is it DC’s or Morrison’s fault, that this was labeled as a "conclusion"? 

  143. Avatar photo eagle6002 says:
    November 29, 2008 at 12:57 pm

    Good news though: 3 issues of Batman come out next month so we won’t have to wait forever to get some sort of explanation

  144. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 29, 2008 at 1:00 pm

    I think it’s DC’s fault to say it was a ‘conclusion’. I mean we do have two more issues by Morrison, and then a couple of issues by Gaiman and O’Neill….and then Battle for the Cowl. So I dont think it’s fair to say this story is over. No I think this is just the beginning of a very wild ride with the Batman titles.

    I honestly think Dr. Hurt is the devil, or a form of him. He say: ‘I am the hole in things, Bruce, the enemy, the peice that can never fit, there since the beginning.’ I interpret that as, he is evil personified, or the one factor that makes Bruce who he is. It’s a little weird that Morrison would go in a mystical sense for his main villain…but I think it works perfectly if Dr. Hurt is the devil.

    No offense Wade but….did you even read that issue I mentioned? It perfectly describes why Batman did the psychological tests and how it prepared him to be a better crime fighter. He did it right after Joker killed Jason Todd….it was more so to help him fight the Joker, but once he got the personality in him…He knew how to be a better detective.

  145. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 29, 2008 at 1:03 pm

    Also…sorry again for a double post, damn for the lack of edit button on here…

    This issue explained Bruce didnt realise about the Black Glove’s motives until his training in 52. So the tests made him a better detective, but he didnt realise about the plans until 52.

  146. flapjaxx says:
    November 29, 2008 at 1:29 pm

    @TheNextChampion: Yeah, it’s kind of misleading for DC to put "conclusion" on the cover, but then again the whole "RIP" banner was kind of misleading as well. The earlier issues of Morrison’s run, as well as two issues of 52, are incredibly relevant to this story. Morrison said a while ago that he was doing a "twenty-five chapter Batman novel", and we have two "chapters" left: issues 682 and 683. I don’t see how Morrison could get through those issues without making some informative reference to some of the unanswered questions that we have. So the story isn’t really "concluded". The next two issues will very possibly be as important to our understanding of "RIP" as many of the pre-676 issues have proven. With that said, I’d be surprised if we ever learn anything conclusive about whether Simon Hurt "is" the Devil.

  147. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 29, 2008 at 2:28 pm

    This has gotten way more boring than it ought to be.

  148. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    November 29, 2008 at 2:45 pm

    @Champ — LOL Of course I read the issue. It’s just that, first you said: "He obviously wanted him to go crazy from day one since he was the one who made Bruce go threw that military test mentioned earlier in Morrison’s run. In hinsight he is responsible for Bruce being quicker then his enemies cause he was willing to get the ‘Zurh-En-Arrh’ personality in him."

    I didn’t understand what you meant by this, so I asked you & you said: "Dr Hurt is responsible for Batman being smarter than his enemies". 

    Nope, he isn’t. Bruce WANTED to do the tests, Hurt didn’t "make him" as you said. Batman has been smarter & more prepared than his enemies long before these isolation tests took place. It’s the reason he TOOK the tests in the first place.

     

  149. Avatar photo FACE says:
    November 29, 2008 at 3:06 pm

    It’s as if Hurt’s the last elusive piece in the psychological puzzle Bruce has been trying to grasp. Joker’s relationship with Hurt seems indicative of that.  

  150. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 29, 2008 at 11:33 pm

    @Wade: Well I’m getting confused myself….so what do I know? lol

    Seriously I re-read ‘The Black Glove’ trade to get the gist of Dr. Hurt and your right…he didnt force Bruce to do it. But he was the doctor who patient the test and learned a great deal of Batman while he did the test. Dont know how he knows Bruce is Bats, but he definitely seems to know more then he is letting on while reading those two issues.

    Maybe he is the Devil, or he could be a very disturbed man who loves Batman too much, or just another random supervillain….Again I think he’s the devil or evil personified but who knows really? I’m not saying I’m 100% correct and my views shouldnt be taken as the truth, Morrison’s final word should be.

  151. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    November 30, 2008 at 1:02 am

    @FACE — Your last post made my head hurt. 😛 

    @Champ — The things you listed above, are the reasons I’m frustrated with RIP. Those are some huge plot holes that are left gaping open, & I’m not cool with that. Maybe they will be answered soon, but maybe not, that’s what’s disappointing. It’s SO vague, & some people totally love that, but for me it’s annoying.

    There was so much I liked about RIP — the take on Joker, Bruce being prepared for ANYTHING & always one step ahead of his enemies, I loved the scene where Batman breaks out of the strait jacket/buried coffin combo & describes it all — that was awesome. This is why the convoluted story telling & non-conclusion is so frustrating for me, because if this was told in a clear (normal?) way I would been a huge fan of this story. But, I’ll always remember it as half awesome & half incomprehensible.  

  152. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 30, 2008 at 1:10 am

    @Wade: Well the next two issues are apparently summaries from what happened in-between the issues of 680 and 681. It might be in the perspective of Alfred but dont quote me on that….But if the questions are bugging you that much, I would imagine some might be answered in those two issues. Which again, I think should mean this isnt the conclusion yet to RIP.

  153. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    November 30, 2008 at 1:22 am

    @Champ – Yeah, I think you’re right about the Alfred thing, & hopefully we do get some answers! I read that Batman’s "true" fate will be shown in Final Crisis, so who knows …

    I also read that the next 2 issues of Batman are the final 2 chapters in Morrison’s "Bat-novel" that he’s been writing since his run first started & if that’s the case, I just wish DC didn’t say that this issue was the "conclusion" of anything. I’d be way less annoyed if I knew for certain that we had answers coming.

  154. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 30, 2008 at 2:06 am

    You could make the arguement that why arent the stories coming out of 682 and 83 coming out before this issue….But I would imagine DC didnt want to stall this storyline any further and it was bad enough with the shipping delays. Either way I’m expecting more fun times with these next two issues.

  155. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 30, 2008 at 6:08 am

    A freind wrote a review and I thought he summed my feelings well on this specific issue. Here’s an excerpt.

    "I guess my biggest problem with this issue was that it contained too many instances of "Batman knew all along" syndrome.  For instance, we’re to believe he wasn’t psychologically crippled by Jezebel’s deception in the last issue because he knew all along that she was a baddie… that Batman has known all along that the Black Glove existed and was out to get him… that Batman’s broken radio was actually the Bat Radia… and so on.  I’m all for the occasional dose of sleight-of-hand, but when done to this extent, it just seems kind of cheap."

  156. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    November 30, 2008 at 6:29 am

    @JumpingJupiter — I didn’t mind the Batman knowing all along stuff. I like the idea of Batman always being switched on & seeing things no one else would, but I guess it was laid on pretty thick. It reminds me of a quote from one of my favourite movies — "Just because I’m paranoid, doesn’t mean someone isn’t trying to kill me."

    Are you still going to write a review, JJ? 

  157. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    November 30, 2008 at 7:23 am

    @Wade: Meh, seems like flogging a dead horse now. I mean, how many reviews do we really need?

  158. Avatar photo Hazer75 says:
    November 30, 2008 at 11:31 am

    RIP  has been a captivating series to me, and this issue didn’t dissapoint.  I’m somewhat glad there is so much room for speculation in some of the things revealed,  and I look forward to the next 2 issues, then the stuff starting in Feb. I was verry worried where this arc might lead too, but I think it went to a cool place thus far and feel this is an exciting time for the Batman world and Gotham right now.  Not happy thus far w/ Crisis but as far as Batman goes, bravo Grant.  Keep it rolling…

  159. Avatar photo FACE says:
    November 30, 2008 at 12:06 pm

    @Wade – sorry bout that. Just guesswork on my part. The truth is I haven’t read Morrison’s entire run on Batman, only the last five or so that preceded RIP and.. RIP. So a big question for me was Joker’s relationship to Hurt. Were there instances of these two working together previously?

  160. flapjaxx says:
    November 30, 2008 at 1:57 pm

    @FACE: Based on their dialogue, it seems that the Joker and Hurt met for the first time in 680. Before that, of course, the Hunchback had been a go-between for the Black Glove, meeting with the Joker in Arkham. But even before that, if you go back and read the Joker prose issue (663), it seems like the Joker is communicating with a dark power. There’s a scene where the Joker lets a mosquito suck his blood, and then the insect curls up into a "black fist", which could be foreshadowing of the "black glove". We’re told that the mosquito came into Arkham on Batman’s cape, so it may be a parallel of the insect-like creature on Bat-Mite’s back. In 663 we’re also told that the Joker is working with someone else at that point, and reading between the lines it seems like he’s communicating with the Devil (in particular read the scene where the Joker seems to be telepathically exchanging evil thoughts with the mosquito while it sucks his blood). We’ll probably NEVER get a detailed explanation of this, though.

  161. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    November 30, 2008 at 2:15 pm

    @flapjaxx: Wow, I didnt even go that far when it comes to that relationship….See though? Obviously you need to read the previous issues of Morrison’s run to get a lot of what happens in this issue.

  162. Avatar photo FACE says:
    November 30, 2008 at 3:03 pm

    Can Batman actually fight ‘the’ devil? Does the DCU even feature a Devil(?), I guess in the sense that Mephisto represents for the Marvel U? 

  163. Avatar photo eagle6002 says:
    November 30, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    Yeah, I definitely disagree that Dr. Hurt is literally the devil. I believe it’s more likely that Morrison is saying that the devil was a part of pierce, chill, and hurt. He might be saying that, in a way, these people became the devil when they decided to commit their sinful acts, metaphorically, not physically.

  164. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    November 30, 2008 at 8:01 pm

    @FACE – Yep, the DCU has The Devil.

  165. Avatar photo FACE says:
    November 30, 2008 at 8:43 pm

    @conor – thanx for putting a smile on my face, even tho’ you didn’t mean to.

      

  166. Avatar photo DocSamson says:
    November 30, 2008 at 9:26 pm

    From WadeWilson: "But, my point is that some people are happy to read a deliberately unclear narrative & plot & just fill in the blanks for themselves (with guesswork, reading the internet for explanations) & some people are old school & expect a story to be a story — everything you need to be on the page, without having to re-read & study it 30 times over."

    Exactly how I feel about it. I don’t have the time nor the inclination to go over a multiple month late comic book just to make sure I’m understanding what the writer is trying to (maybe) get me to understand. Batman the title should never be a book that you say "well, maybe it reads better in trade form".

  167. Avatar photo rwpos says:
    December 1, 2008 at 8:54 pm

    Really, I don’t think Hurt is actually, literally meant to be the Devil.  Especially to the point that Joker would believe that Hurt is the Devil.  I just can’t imagine that the Devil would a) undersetimate Batman and be unaware of his escape from the grave, that b) Joker would be so completely confident that Batman had out thought the Devil, and that c) the Devil would flee like a startled rabbit from the Batman.  I thought that Batman’s reference was metaphorical, equating Hurt with the Devil because he was a purely evil person.

  168. Avatar photo Skullbine says:
    December 7, 2008 at 1:56 pm

    It was a fun arc, but the helicopter explosion that "killed" Batman was lame.  I wish they would have done that differently. 

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