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BATMAN AND ROBIN #5


Price: $2.99
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  1. Avatar photo petevaldez says:
    October 5, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    (will just read the balloons and pretend i’m seeing Frank’s amazing art)

  2. Avatar photo miyamotofreak says:
    October 5, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    Nice to have it coming out so quickly (though I’d rather have Quitely… or Stewart… or Irving).

  3. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    October 5, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    (Insert obligatory Philip Tan hate here)

  4. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 5, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    So many people have this hatred for Tan.

    Okay we get it, he’s no Frank Quitely. How about enjoy the artwork that’s there and try not to compare the two. huh? I thought that what I saw in the last issue was the best work he’s ever put out. If he keeps this type of quality through out his run on the series then I will certainly keep my on this particular Tan.

  5. Avatar photo J4K3 says:
    October 5, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    My imaginary god, it’s amazing how many people hate Philip Tan. Let me be the first to state that I thoroughly enjoyed his art on the last issue. It did the job as well as Quietly’s.

    Go ahead. Disagree. I don’t care. Quietly is overrated.

  6. chadbowen248 says:
    October 5, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    @J4K3 I couldn’t agree more

  7. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 5, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    Look if you don’t like him, then you don’t like him.

    But to keep comparing him to Quitely or just denounce him before the issue is even released is well….well it’s down right stupid. (There I said it)

  8. Avatar photo DarthDuck says:
    October 5, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    Mark me down in the Tan fan club.  I like, rather love, Quietly’s art.  But something about Tan’s art on this title is really getting to me.  I dig it.

  9. Avatar photo WinTheWonderboy says:
    October 5, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    I think we have a contender for cover of the week.

  10. Avatar photo Zeppo says:
    October 5, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    Best cover so far. Love it.

    Tan’s art wasn’t bad, it wasn’t Quietly, but I got over it because the story is so good

  11. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    October 5, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    I’m looking forward to the story in this one.  I don’t hate Mr. Tan’s work, but I also definitely prefer Quitely’s to Tan’s.  In my opinion Mr. Tan’s art does its job, but nothing more.

    I really like where the story is going in this one.

  12. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    October 5, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    @TNC-I did not enjoy his artwork at all last issue, and I was somewhat looking forward to it.  It was muddy, too dark and was terrible storytelling.  Plus, you judge books all the time before they come out (Old Man Logan, Hellboy, etc.) so why am I not allowed to?  Your move, sucka

  13. Avatar photo RKB says:
    October 5, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    I like Tan’s art…his rendering of The Penguin however…needs work.

  14. Avatar photo SunnyvaleTrash says:
    October 5, 2009 at 4:47 pm

    Tan’s art was okay, but i did find the storytelling/narrative a bit off.  I was gonna chalk that up to Morrison though.

  15. Avatar photo JMS74 says:
    October 5, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    After Tan finally got on this book and I read #4, I’m frankly shocked that this is such a polarizing issue.  Quitely’s good, unique and has something going with Morrison on this title, but I didn’t think there was really any dropoff in the book last month.  I’m no Quitely evangelist but I do think Morrison-Quitely is a special combination.. however, this book didn’t suffer in my eyes without Quitely there.  I accepted all along that Quitely won’t be there every month.  The "feel" of the book remained the same with Tan on the art, which is really quite a feat- sometimes an artist change is jarring and I didn’t think that was the case here.  Just one fan’s opinion.

  16. Avatar photo OttoBott says:
    October 5, 2009 at 5:05 pm

    That’s quite a minimalist background for the cover. I’m not sure if I dig the posterized-gradient, but other then that, very nice,

  17. Avatar photo Bryce31 says:
    October 5, 2009 at 5:21 pm

    I don’t mind the Tan art, but I don’t like when the artist on a book changes it bugs me.  Like the last issue of amazing-spiderman where the last few pages weren’t drawn by Mike McKone.

  18. Avatar photo Patman2 says:
    October 5, 2009 at 5:49 pm

    I really did’nt dislike Tan’s art that much last time around. it was pleasant enough to look at and it got the job done, god knows we’ve seen lots shittier art in the past(I’m lookin at you 1990’s)

  19. edward says:
    October 5, 2009 at 6:20 pm

    i did just post something, didn’t i?

  20. Avatar photo vadamowens says:
    October 5, 2009 at 6:28 pm

    @edward you look eerily similar to Obama.  What’s with that hair part?

  21. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    October 5, 2009 at 6:42 pm

    I liked last issue the most out of the whole series so far. I thought the art was awesome.

    (insert hate for me below)

  22. Avatar photo ScorpionMasada says:
    October 5, 2009 at 6:42 pm

    TheNextChampion is trying to mature and realize that judging the specifics of books before they are released is a bad habit.

    It is good to watch.

  23. edward says:
    October 5, 2009 at 6:47 pm

    @vadamowens: that’s not me, man, it’s a photoshopped picture of obama with a few changes… it’s a bad joke

    @ScorpionMasada: ha ha. you’re a little proud, huh? 

  24. Avatar photo PraxJarvin says:
    October 5, 2009 at 7:09 pm

    @edward Actually, I believe it is DrakeDangerz and I who should be proudest. :-p

    I wonder if back in the day, gathered around the newsstand some tweedy looking kids speaking in in affected ’20s accents despite it being the early-60s opened up an issue of Richie Rich (the best selling comic book property ever, believe it or not. In one two month span in the 60s he appeared on 26 different comic book covers) and went man this Ernie Colon guy is no Wareen Kremer. What I’m saying is…. they’re different. However, the art is not eye-gouginly bad. It’s not likely to reach off the page and ruin your hose. What it is… good. No, it’s not like Quitely. But that’s the point. Morrison’s working with other artists for feeling and mood as well as speed. Really, if you can’t get over it I feel sorry for you. All this "Skipping till Stewart, I’ll read the words and come back later" stuff unnerves me to no end. By no means do you have to like the art, but I imagine we’ve all stuck through a "terrible" art changes before and never said word one about it. I know I did. Anyway, yeah… rant over. I’m just tired of hearing about.

    Excited for this issue. Loved the last one. This new Red Hood mystery is far better than the last one. 

  25. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    October 5, 2009 at 7:12 pm

    Don’t get too excited for the boy, it’s only Monday after all. 😉

  26. Avatar photo Crippler says:
    October 5, 2009 at 7:18 pm

    I’m just really happy that this book is 5/5 ontime (maybe even early? I swear #4 was out only 3 weeks ago).

  27. edward says:
    October 5, 2009 at 7:24 pm

    @prax: i’m happy you two found each other and were made complete by your little bundle of joy

     

    I agree with your rant. ultimately, i think people are just venting their frustrations over the change in art. there’s nothing wrong with that. I, personally, would just bottle it up until i explode though.

  28. Avatar photo CronyC says:
    October 5, 2009 at 7:28 pm

    Despite the absence of the amazing Frank Quitely this remains one of my favorite titles.

  29. Avatar photo miyamotofreak says:
    October 5, 2009 at 7:50 pm

    @crippler

    The last Quitely issue was late. This is a return to normal schedule.

  30. Avatar photo vadamowens says:
    October 5, 2009 at 8:12 pm

    @edward I knew that bro.  I was hoping you’d just roll with it, but that’s ok.

  31. edward says:
    October 5, 2009 at 8:13 pm

    ah!

  32. flapjaxx says:
    October 5, 2009 at 8:40 pm

    There are many things people could–could–decide to get over.

    Some people could decide to get over the fact that this issue is drawn by Tan and not Quitely.

    Other people could decide to get over the fact that it’s totally natural to bring up the Quitely comparison (especially since he’s still doing the covers!) and that Tan is not regarded as 1/10th the artist Quitely is.

    That said, Tan’s art definitely didn’t ruin the previous issue for me. I’m about as excited for this as I’ve ever been excited for a Morrison Batman issue, because I mostly just care about the ongoing story. Frankly, the fact that Tan’s on art duties is simply the LEAST interesting part of this issue for me, by a mile. I just don’t care about it. I don’t like Tan’s art but I don’t fear that it’s going to ruin the experience for me.

    Maybe I should get over caring about what other people think, one way or the other, about Philip Tan. Pick any one of the other characters in this issue–or any one of the plot points–they’re all more interesting to me than the fact that Tan is on art for this issue and the next.

  33. Avatar photo PraxJarvin says:
    October 5, 2009 at 8:51 pm

    @flapjaxx I general, I agree with you. My point about getting over it is that no amount of stamping feet on a message board is going to magically get Quitely to do every issue. And there’s a difference between comparing the two as artists and just going "Blah! X is not Y! Y is better." As well, there’s been no end to hearing about it since the solicit for #4 came out. I’m a big Quitely fan. Would I love for him to do every issue? Yes. However, it’s also nothing new to see Morrison and Quitely together. Seeing Morrison work with different artists and the same project is really something special, and can really help examine both the writing and the art in new ways. That’s really what I’m excited for. So yeah, I’m being more than a little dramatic with my post, but it’s just grating, Like hearing complaints about the cost of an issue, which have abated somewhat.

  34. MisterJ says:
    October 5, 2009 at 9:39 pm

    @Prax-While I certainly agree with you about the incessant bitching, I do feel that those who merely come out and say, ‘I don’t like it/him and am not going to buy it’ certainly have validity.

  35. Avatar photo robbydzwonar says:
    October 5, 2009 at 10:58 pm

    I just read every single post and not one person said anything about Morrison’s interesting as hell run on Batman. Everybody just argued about the art. 

    (Time to change subject)…

  36. Avatar photo gnanniv says:
    October 5, 2009 at 11:42 pm

    Morrison’s run on Batman has been interesting as hell.

  37. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    October 5, 2009 at 11:48 pm

    Interesting as ALL hell

  38. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 6, 2009 at 12:26 am

    @drake: I wasn’t judging you. I know you were looking forward to Tan. If you didn’t like the result of it then I can’t judge.

    But others, a big one who’s name begins with ‘C’ for example, groaned and didn’t give the man a chance. I mean once the name was mentioned they were moaning and groaning. Those are the fans I am annoyed about. I’m gald @PraxJarvin agrees with me. 🙂

    Again if your not a fan of what you saw then I’m not annoyed at that. Just at the complete hatred for the man like he’s a witch at Salem.

  39. Avatar photo kwisdumb says:
    October 6, 2009 at 12:55 am

    Not a fan of Tan, and I wasn’t that into last issue, but I’m still going into this with high hopes. It’ll be over soon, right?

  40. Avatar photo Kory says:
    October 6, 2009 at 8:31 am

    Is it really so crazy to be dreading a creator coming on to a title you’re enjoying, especially when the past experience you’ve had with his work is dreadful?  For example, if Michael Bay were signed on to direct the next Batman film instead of Christopher Nolan I would be pissed.  I’ve seen enough of Michael Bay’s movies to know that his stuff isn’t for me.   Same goes for Tan.

    @TNC: Stop trying to be the voice of reason, you’re freaking me out. 😉

  41. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 6, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    @Kory: I’m just trying to change my image. Like Jay Leno but actually just being the same person.

    But that is a good example with Michael Bay. Would I groan that he was directing a new Batman film? Most likely….Maybe there is a balance to this.

    How about: It’s okay to hate on a creative team if your not a fan of writer/artist/or both. But don’t hate on an issue until you read it. So, it’s okay not to like Billy Tan but don’t judge until you see what he’s actually done. That sounds about right. Which, again a lot of people didn’t seem to do. They condemned issue #4 before the third issue was even out.

  42. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    October 6, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    @TNC-nah, I firmly believe you can crap on something before it comes out.  If you know you don’t like the track record of a certain creator, you can and will bring that baggage with you before reading anything else that they do.  Safer thing to say is that if you are going to crap on something, do it intelligently and don’t just post a random insult.

    Ha, crap on something intelligently.  🙂

  43. Avatar photo ActualButt says:
    October 6, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    Anybody remember The Kingdom: Offspring one shot that Quitely did waaaaaay back in the day? That was awesome. If there’s anyone that I would kill to see Quitely draw more of, it’s Plastic Man.

  44. Avatar photo Hawkboy says:
    October 6, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    I have to admit I’ve got no time for people who for instance, read Booster Gold (Just grabbing a title at random here) and enjoy a run by someone on Booster Gold and then when the next issue will be by someone else they say "Well I’m dropping this now cause it’s not Geoff Johns". 

    I mean Comics are a bit different then some other mediums… To me it’s character/idea driven.  If you enjoy a character why not stick with it at least for a few issues after a creative change? Chances are Editorial will steer the character in the same direction.  Now I did say chances are…  I do believe the odds tip in your favour but I know it’s no certainty.

      When you read comics for a long time I think you find Characters are around a lot longer than any writer so you are probably missing out on a character you once enjoyed.  I have many faveourite writers and artists but I don’t understand ONLY blindly following what creators write/draw and not what they don’t write/draw after all ‘The Play’s the Thing".  Don’t worry I’m not saying stick with something even though it’s no longer good.. but don’t jump off before you even experience a creative change with characters you enjoy. Believe me I’ve dropped books of characters I enjoy and it was hard for me but i always gave new creators a chance. 

  45. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 6, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    @Hawkboy: There are so many different ways to read comic books that what works for one person may not work for someone else. Reading a comic book for the character is no different than reading a book for a creator.

  46. Avatar photo Hawkboy says:
    October 6, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    Oh I’m well aware I’m just the other side og the same coin Conor!  🙂  I’m just saying how this old fuddy duddy does it (Is that how you spell fuddy duddy?).  I’m not saying people are wrong for doing it the way they do… I just don’t get it.

     

  47. Avatar photo SteenAR says:
    October 6, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    I’m actually really liking Philip Tan’s art. Sure he’s no Frank Quitely but he’s still doing a great job. It’s also really awesome to still have Frank doing the covers. 

  48. Avatar photo robbydzwonar says:
    October 7, 2009 at 12:18 am

    Holy shit for a minute I was having a flashback of reading the debate on Facebook about which bassist from Incubus is better, Dirk Lance or Ben Kenney.  This message board is like 99 percent exactly the same.  Only the dates and the names have changed…

  49. Avatar photo RandoCalrissian says:
    October 7, 2009 at 1:43 am

    Quitely is a tough act to follow for anyone but I think Tan is doing a good job. He is one of the few Batman artists who can draw Damien as kid

  50. Avatar photo vadamowens says:
    October 7, 2009 at 11:18 am

    @rando I’d say its more choice than ability

  51. Avatar photo comicBOOKchris says:
    October 7, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    Im not going to bellyache over Tan’s art too much, as he’s only on the book for a very limited time, then we get the amazing Cameron Stewart!

  52. Avatar photo Slockhart says:
    October 7, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    @comicBOOKcrhis

    Agreed.  I find Philip Tan’s art distracting from the story BUT what everyone seems to be forgetting is he’s only got one issue left.  Then we get yet another great artist for three issues, then (not sure if this is confirmed or just a rumor) 3 more Quitely. I’m willing to deal with 9 out of 12. 

  53. Avatar photo Jim says:
    October 7, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    Philip Tan art is like bad weather– if you can’t avoid it, just relax and enjoy it.

  54. Avatar photo Heroville says:
    October 7, 2009 at 6:40 pm

    I love the irony of the phone-in poll, and does this  mean Scarlett knows about the Bat secret?

  55. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    October 7, 2009 at 6:55 pm

    That wasn’t very good.  The story didn’t pop (B&R getting beaten down?) and the art was not to my liking.  It is amazing how quickly this has fallen from unbelievably good to average.  Flamingo seems interesting.  Hopefully, he will provide some pop for the book.

  56. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 7, 2009 at 7:03 pm

    @stuclach: Thank god I got someone behind me!

    Yeah this was pretty bad on all levels with the writing. This was way to predictable, the reveal of Red Hood just happened and there was no dramatics to it, and this El Flamingo guy (while admitting he could be cool) just comes out of no where in the end. I mean he is talked about last issue, but just barely. This seemed like a new writer doing this series and not the Morrison I know and loved.

    Philip Tan, however, continues to suprise me. It’s not as brilliant as last issue was but it’s still a soild 4/5 for me with art. His depiction of Scarlett is a bit mishandled but other then that: He’s really impressing me at what he can do. Again if you hate what you saw then we gotta disagree. But I think putting him as the next artist was a right decision.

  57. Avatar photo gobo says:
    October 7, 2009 at 7:04 pm

    I don’t understand the Tan hate.

  58. Avatar photo Spoons says:
    October 7, 2009 at 7:20 pm

    @Gobo neither do I except for one thing I noticed with this issue.  His Alfred is without a doubt the worst I have every seen.  Other than that I liked/didn’t mind the art.  For some reason I find myself actually becoming angry when I look at Alfred.  Weird.

    For the writing side of things; really? Jason Todd again?  I was holding out hope for the Joker or something.  This was the first issue of this series I was dissappointed with.

  59. Avatar photo HailScott says:
    October 7, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    Hmmm. stuclach and thenextchampion already wrote everything I was thinking as I read this. I loved the first three issues of this, but the last two have left me underwhelmed.

  60. Avatar photo Crucio says:
    October 7, 2009 at 9:20 pm

    Am I missing something about Jason being a redhead or is that a retcon? Seems like an odd thing to hangup on but it just nags at me.

  61. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    October 7, 2009 at 9:31 pm

    @Crucio – I have no idea if it is a retcon, but I can say that I found it incredibly uninteresting.  I also find the idea that Batman asked him to dye it completely preposterous.  If that is true then I have even less respect for some of those old Batstories.

  62. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 7, 2009 at 9:54 pm

    I do like the design of the new Jason Todd. The red hair with the white strip is pretty cool.

    But yeah, he never had red hair before ever….So did he dye it or was that a coloring mistake?

  63. MisterJ says:
    October 7, 2009 at 10:15 pm

    I thought that making his hair red is kinda lame, but also unimportant.  Which makes me wonder why he did it.  Just so arbitrary. (aside from the Red hood name)

    I liked that there was no drama to the Jason reveal.  The idea of dragging it out and making us wonder who was under there is an idea I can live without.

    I don’t mind the art, except for the fight scenes.  I think that htis is the real area where Quitely has made his mark.

  64. edward says:
    October 7, 2009 at 10:27 pm

    @ Gobo: because there are many, many more talented artists that don’t get to work on a comic with this profile. because DC thinks  an ‘extreme’ artist will sell better than a quality one.

    i think it’s a legitimate reason to bitch and moan

  65. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    October 7, 2009 at 10:43 pm

    @TNC and stuclach-Originally, Jason had red hair.  I believe it was changed after his first appearance (Prax will come in and let you in on all the juicy details I’m sure).  If you go back to Neil Gaiman’s "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader" the red-headed kid that watches Catwoman’s car in the beginning is intended to be the first version of Jason.  That’s why he freaks out when the Joker shows up.  Anyways, I totally agree that the idea of Batman asking him to change his hair color is absurd in every way and his reveal was not nearly as interesting or as played up as it should have been.

    Overall, I liked this issue more than the last, but still a downgrade from the first arc.  Not just in the art, but writing as well.   

  66. Avatar photo smeeeeee says:
    October 7, 2009 at 11:10 pm

    I dont understand the Tan hate as well. I absolutely prefer his style on this title than Quitely. I never understood the love Quitely gets. Hes style is wierd and draws people’s anatomy and faces wierd. I guess people dig his abnormal style but Tan’s style on this book fits this book better than quitely.

  67. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    October 7, 2009 at 11:20 pm

    @Smeeeee-The love for Quitely isn’t just because of the way he chooses to render people, its because of his amazing story telling ability.  I think people that claim to not like his work tend to overlook that.

  68. Avatar photo Waka says:
    October 7, 2009 at 11:26 pm

    ”Philip Tan art is like bad weather– if you can’t avoid it, just relax and enjoy it. ”

     I Totally agree with you. No more to say.

  69. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 8, 2009 at 12:04 am

    @drake: Look at you being the Batman historian here. But that makes sense, I never knew about that. Still I’m sure most of the readers are confused why Jason has red hair all of a sudden. I mean if Jason wants to be independant of his ties with Batman; should he have had red hair since he got ressurected?

  70. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    October 8, 2009 at 12:27 am

    @TNC-Their confusion would be justified!  It’s quite an odd thing to do.

  71. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 8, 2009 at 12:31 am

    @drake: I wonder if anyone else who has wrote for Batman knows Jason used to have red hair. Cause if Judd Winick knew that when he ressurected him oh so many years ago….He would’ve gotten some brownie points for it.

  72. Avatar photo DarkKnightDetective says:
    October 8, 2009 at 1:31 am

    @TNC actually Jason having red hair is common knowledge that many people know about. The reason why you never heard of it is because it was such a stupid idea that it was retconned shortly afterwards (immediately after post crisis/Batman Year One) and everyone has chosen to simply ignore and forget that it ever existed. Which it puzzles me why Morrison continues to crap all over Batman continuity by bringing back such a horrendous and arbitrary idea back. Also, what the hell was he thinking with this red hood BS, does he really think its cool? because he is indeed wrong

    I mean I’m not a Morrison hater, I love some of his work, particularly All Star Superman. But seriously, this has gone on long enough, he needs to just walk away from Batman. First he ruins arguably the greatest comic book villain ever(Joker) by turning him into a parody of the most overused serial killer cliches, retconns a retcon by introducing Damian and now he is ruining one of my favorite Batman related characters in Jason Todd.

  73. edward says:
    October 8, 2009 at 1:31 am

    Jason is literally the red-headed step child

  74. Avatar photo Mustbedamned says:
    October 8, 2009 at 5:58 am

    He made him dye it to look like Grayson?

    That just creeps me out.

    Oh and @edward, I’m literally a red-headed step child. Only I was only beat with a bare hand; not a crowbar.

    (Laugh Track)

  75. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    October 8, 2009 at 8:57 am

    @Drakedangerz – Thank you for sharing your knowledge.  I don’t have a problem with him being redheaded (if he was originally intended to be), but having him dye it like that is ridiculous and seems like an unnecessary thing to bring up.  Perhaps Mr. Morrison is attempting to provide some justification for Jason Todd’s behavior.  He may be trying to make it clear that Jason was treated somewhat poorly and behaved as he did/does for a justifiable reason.  I don’t think it is working, but that could be the motivation.  Regardless, this issue just didn’t work for me.

  76. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    October 8, 2009 at 9:22 am

    @stuclach-I was talking with someone else and they brought up the point that in some crazy Batman logic, it makes sense to have him dye his hair.  Basically, it would be easier for people to make the connection between Bruce Wayne and Batman if both of them suddenly started rolling around Gotham with a red-headed teenager at the same time.  So to keep the illusion of there only being one Robin, he would ask Jason to dye his hair black.  It’s still a bit out of left field, but I’ve warmed up to the idea somewhat.  Still not OK with it though, to be honest.

  77. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    October 8, 2009 at 9:52 am

    @drakedangerz – Give the kid a costume with a cowl.  Don’t make him change who he is.  (I feel like I’m taking Jason Todd’s side and it makes me feel dirty.)

  78. Avatar photo Paul Montgomery (@fuzzytypewriter) says:
    October 8, 2009 at 11:03 am

    Art was a little muddier than last issue, but I do like the story. 4 stars. 

  79. Avatar photo vadamowens says:
    October 8, 2009 at 11:23 am

    I had some slight issues with the art as well.  Morrison is doing a great job though and I’m excited to see what’s going to happen with this new storyline.

  80. MikeFarley says:
    October 8, 2009 at 12:47 pm

    Didn’t the post-Crisis Jason Todd, the one Batman met when he was trying to boost the Batmobile’s tires, have black hair right from the start?

  81. Avatar photo DarkKnightDetective says:
    October 8, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    That is correct, the pre-crisis Jason Todd was a red headed circus acrobat…. yeah, a circus acrobat. You see why it was retconned so easily? The post crisis Jason Todd had black hair and was from the east end streets and first met Batman when he was trying to steal the tires from the batmobile.

    heres a picture of the original Jason Todd  http://media.photobucket.com/image/jason%20todd%20red%20hair/tsukiwriter/Comic%20Scans/precrisis_jay.jpg

    If Morrison wants to bring back the original pre crisis origin, its going to make little sense since the pre crisis and post crisis Jason Todd are completely day and night different. And if Morrison wants to pick and choose is canon and not, well he needs to just take his head out of his ass

  82. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    October 8, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    @DarkKnightDetective-dude, calm down.  I’ve never seen anyone care for Jason Todd so much, he’s hardly worth it.  I can’t think of anyone more deserving of death, or at least a retcon, than Jason Todd.

  83. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 8, 2009 at 4:06 pm

    I think it’s cool that Morrison brought back an idea DC wanted to retcon so heavily. Is it ridiculous to dye his hair black? Most likely. But @drakedangerz was on to something. Maybe Bruce wanted to also keep the Robin legacy going and make sure criminals didnt realize that there’s a new boy under the costume. It’s a little creepy but in terms of strategy it makes sense.

  84. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 8, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    @TNC: That’s exactly why he did it.

    It’s not at all creepy to have Jason Todd dye his hair.

  85. MisterJ says:
    October 8, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    It’s totally creepy to tell a child to change his appearance to look like the last ‘child’ that the ‘parent’ had.  It is classic projection.

    But then again, it’s totally wrong to promote and support a child to run the streets beating on villains.  Which is kinda the premise, so that leaves the water a bit murky as to what is a creepy act and what is a responsible act.

  86. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 8, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    Well has a whole it’s wrong for Batman to tell these kids to become a superhero with him. So I think dying a kid’s hair is very far down the list on the wrong things Bruce has done in his life. lol

  87. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 8, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    @MisterJ: I disagree. Jason was playing a role. There were bigger things at stake than the color of a kid’s hair.

  88. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    October 8, 2009 at 4:43 pm

    I think I would have less of an issue with the hair dye if the way in which it was revealed were handled better, or in another setting.  A crazy Jason Todd monologue didn’t really work for me and that was the main contributor to my disliking it. 

    But I will admit that the more I think about it, and the more time passes, the more I’m accepting of the idea.  I am almost at the point where I’m OK with it.  Almost.

  89. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 8, 2009 at 4:44 pm

    It’s amazing how we are fixated on this dye job and not how lame the reveal of Jason Todd was as the Red Hood. The little things that keep this a tight knit community 🙂

  90. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 8, 2009 at 4:45 pm

    @TNC: Probably because it wasn’t lame.

  91. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 8, 2009 at 4:47 pm

    @conor: No build up to the reveal and it just being a throw away thing? Yeah that’s not lame…

  92. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 8, 2009 at 4:49 pm

    It’s like Morrison went up to Tan and said: "Oh by the way, Jason Todd is Red Hood and put it in the middle of the title with no big reveal. Anyways what should we do for page 18?"

  93. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 8, 2009 at 4:52 pm

    @TNC: It’s been clear to me that it’s been Jason the whole time. I didn’t see it as a big reveal beause it wasn’t a mystery.

  94. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 8, 2009 at 4:57 pm

    @conor: Well I mean if you thought it was Jason, then I see what you mean.

    I just thought Morrison was going to play this mystery up and make it a swerve or something. Again I’m fine with it being Todd overall; just the execution of it was a bit lazy.

  95. Avatar photo captbastrd says:
    October 8, 2009 at 5:06 pm

    @drakedangerz
    I think a crazy Jason Todd monologue is a great way of revealing/bringing that up. It sounded to me like a, "You know what else he did?!" rant that a spiteful person would give; I know because I too am a bitter, bitter man. One who often rants ("Wanna hear what my ex once said to me??", "Would you believe what they made me do at my last job?!", etc, etc). Jason Todd probably sees it as creepy, (like when Flanders dated that country singer and started cutting her hair to look like Maude’s after she died on The Simpsons) but, possibly through the lens of the retcon goggles, it was a tactical choice by Batman. 

    Here’s how I think (checks the top for correct Tan) Philip Tan operates:
    "Hmmm that captbastrd guy said my last issue wasn’t so bad, eh? Well fuck him!"
    *Scribble, scribble, poor story telling, confusing character juxtapositioning*

    Same damn thing happened last time I gave Tan the backhanded compliment of "Not so bad" on Green Lantern; next thing I know, the last issue he did on the Agent Orange arc comes out, which some might recall from the vomiting that occured while trying to read it. 

  96. Avatar photo drakedangerz says:
    October 8, 2009 at 5:26 pm

    @captbastrd-haha, stupid crazy Flanders.

    You do make a good point.  I got some thinkin’ to do.

  97. MisterJ says:
    October 8, 2009 at 5:30 pm

    @conor-Can we agree that while it is pragmatic and practical to keep the appearance the same, it is creepy to force one of your ‘kids’ to look like the other one.  I mean, there are less permanent methods that could have been used to continue the outside illusion.

    @TNC-I was happy with how we found out who the Red Hood was.  Do we really need to go through a bunch mystery when it was always going to be one of two people (Joker or Todd).  The only way to make the mystery satisfying would be if it was neither.  Morrison wanted it to be Todd, so he got it out of the way quickly.  It’s kinda like Martian Manhunter’s death.  The book simply was not about that event, so it is better to get it out of the way instead of dragging it on for months for the obvious payoff.  The ‘reveal’ just wasn’t the subject matter.

  98. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 8, 2009 at 5:35 pm

    @MisterJ: I don’t agree that it is creepy, no. He’s not making Jason Todd look like Dick Grayson (although that’s how I’m sure Jason took it which adds to his dementia and makes the story more intresting), he’s making him look like Robin.

  99. Avatar photo KickAss says:
    October 8, 2009 at 5:41 pm

    I flipped through the art in this.  Not bad, not bad at all.  Don’t see the hate.

    I look forward to the paperback.

  100. MisterJ says:
    October 8, 2009 at 5:44 pm

    @conor-I see what you are saying, but seeing as he didn’t put a wig on him, or hair weave, or whatever other method that would not have been a permanent dye job, he did not only alter Todd’s appearance while he was Robin.  Yes, on the one hand he did make him look like Robin, and not like Grayson, but on the other hand, he permanently altered Todd’s actual appearance, not just make him dress in the same costume. 

    Just saying that there are other less extreme methods to achieve the same goal. 

    And before someone says that the wig could have falled off and revealed the red hair underneath, they just had to use the same glue that holds his domino mask on 🙂

  101. MisterJ says:
    October 8, 2009 at 5:49 pm

    ‘fallen off’ not ‘falled off’

  102. edward says:
    October 8, 2009 at 5:50 pm

    @Mustbedamned: i’m no scientist but i’m pretty sure red hair comes from one parent sleeping with a demon.

     

    Re: the hait dye debate. it makes sense to have Jason dye his hair. You have to realise that the ‘Robins’ although young already had fully formed. strong personalities. that’s why they became a robin

  103. MisterJ says:
    October 8, 2009 at 6:06 pm

    Regardless of the strength of the individual’s character, or the practicality of the matter, you are not going to find any child-raising books suggesting a permanent alteration of your child’s physical appearance is a good idea, ESPECIALLY if it is done to make him/her look like someone else.  There are no two ways around it. 

    Also, the book itself suggests that Todd didn’t become Robin of his own volition, rather that he was forced into it as an attempt to ‘save’ him.  This is just a continuation of the theme that Morrison has been sporadically laying down that Bruce was not a good father.

  104. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 8, 2009 at 6:22 pm

    @MisterJ: This is a superhero book that once featured an 8 year old who went out every night to fight crime while weraing a circus unitard and a cape. I don’t think you can apply real world child rearing standards to it without seeming arbitrarily ridiculous, unless you’re doing it for comedy’s sake.

    Jason did become Robin by his own choice. Against his better judgment Batman took on another Robin, and one with a major attitude problem from day one, in order save him from himself.

    Am I the only one who actually read these books?

  105. Avatar photo Mustbedamned says:
    October 8, 2009 at 7:57 pm

    @edward: So does that mean by rhyming in old english I can turn into a demon with a cape?

  106. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 8, 2009 at 8:16 pm

    @conor: You’ve been reading it as long as I’ve been born. So sorry I don’t have infinite knowledge like you do.

    @MisterJ: From reading the previous issue and up tot he point before Todd was revealed; yes I thought that was a part of this story. Cause it was a mystery to everyone, except Dick, who was under the hood. Then again they did the exact same thing in ‘Battle for the Cowl’, so maybe I should’ve caught on how new costumes for Todd isn’t a mystery.

  107. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    October 8, 2009 at 8:22 pm

    @Conor – Many of the people on this board weren’t alive when those books came out, so I can understand some confusion.

    I’m now going to go reread the issue to see if I can find something interesting about Jason’s acne that we can devote 40 comments to.  Personally, I can understand why Bats would have Jason dye his hair, but that sounds like a needlessly time consuming method for hiding the change. I can also see how (as I mentioned above) Mr. Morrison might bring this back up as a way to provide some justification for Jason’s actions.  However, I think there might have been better ways to go about doing that.

  108. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 8, 2009 at 8:43 pm

    @TNC @stuclach I’m not saying people should have read those books, I was genuinely asking.

  109. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 8, 2009 at 8:52 pm

    @conor: I dont know if your saying that we’ve read the old issues or just reading this series in particular.

  110. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 8, 2009 at 9:01 pm

    @TNC: The old issues where Jason Todd became Robin.

  111. edward says:
    October 8, 2009 at 9:08 pm

    ha ha.

  112. MikeFarley says:
    October 8, 2009 at 10:52 pm

    You know this whole thing would be solved if Superboy Prime would just punch the walls of reality and put Jason Todd back into his grave again.

  113. edward says:
    October 8, 2009 at 10:58 pm

    what if Superboy prime punch the walls of reality and Jason always had black hair?

     but people didn’t know what donuts were even though it actually rained donuts.

  114. Avatar photo DarkKnightDetective says:
    October 8, 2009 at 11:04 pm

    I think the biggest problem wasnt so much that there wasn’t a big reveal that the Red Hood actually is Jason, but why is Jason going back to being the Red Hood again? I mean that was back in what? 2005? Jason has made many appearances since then where he wasnt the Red Hood anymore so why is Morrison going back to this? not only that, but seriously its a really lame costume, Jason deserves better. I mean when Winnick wrote him, he felt like a pulpy sort of ‘The Shadow’ type of character.

    And sorry, but I am an unapologetic fan of Jason Todd. I realize a lot of people are only familiar with the character from stories of the last couple of years but I grew up reading Batman comics with Jason (and no you dont have to be over 30 or something, I was born in 86) and I feel as though Daniel and now Morrison are turning what was once a really interesting character that could be mined into a conflicted hero, but instead has been turned into a one note psycho who now has red hair of all things they could have brought back

  115. Avatar photo vadamowens says:
    October 8, 2009 at 11:33 pm

    It’s fucking hair people.

  116. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 8, 2009 at 11:51 pm

    @DarkKnightDetective: It’s funny, I grew up with Jason Todd too and I won’t be happy until he’s beaten half to death with a crowbar and blown up again.

  117. Avatar photo DarkKnightDetective says:
    October 9, 2009 at 12:00 am

    @Conor, well of course after the way hes been acting I think all of us(including me) wouldnt mind seeing him being beaten to a pulp. If Jasons dead, then hes dead. But if they’re gonna keep him alive, atleast make him interesting, make him conflicted, maybe give him angst or something but dont make him a typical psycho. I mean in the latest issue he sounded, Morrison made him sound like an angry 11 year old whos angry at the world making him the way he is, including giving him zits!

  118. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 9, 2009 at 12:07 am

    @DarkKnightDetective: If Jason has to be around in comics right now then I like the way they are using him now. I like Grant’s characterization. He’s clearly the angry, neglected son who never lived up to Dick and was overshadowed by Tim. If they have to kee Jason around then I say that petulant and whiny is the only thing that makes sense.

  119. MisterJ says:
    October 9, 2009 at 12:09 am

    @conor-I acknowledged the ‘comic bookness’ (or however you want to frame it) in my first post on the topic, so no, I am not losing the forest for the trees.  As a kid running around is a part of the premise, it has to be accepted to continue on with the story.  But that does not change any of the rest of my point.  If you have a higher tolerance for what I would consider creepy, (forcing a lesser liked son to appear similar to your more liked son) well okay. 

    I was also a marvel zombie until I got my hands on DKR and DKR2.

    I am just saying that this is Morrison putting one more penny in the piggy bank that Bruce is all kinds of messed up. That’s all.  It’s not about the hair itself, it’s about Bruce.

  120. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 9, 2009 at 12:13 am

    @MisterJ: Putting aside the fact that, as I’ve already said, Bruce wasn’t making Jason look like Dick, he was making him look like Robin (which is a critically important distinction), what Grant is doing is not about making Bruce look like a bad parent, it’s showcasing the deth of Jason’s psychosis. Jason *thinks* it was about making him look like Dick, when in fact it was about A) Keeping their secret identities safe, and B) Keep Jason alive.

  121. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 9, 2009 at 12:28 am

    @conor: The only comics I read with Jason, before getting ressurected, was just ‘A Death in the Family’. So no, I don’t have the huge reference of the character other then him being a bitch, then dead, then being a psychopath once ressurected.

  122. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    October 9, 2009 at 5:51 am

    Forgive me for not wanting to read through 120 comments, but … uh, Jason Todd "forced" to dye his hair black to look like Dick? Is this the first time this has ever been mentioned in comics, or haven’t I been paying attention for the last 20 years? And, Todd wasn’t resurrected by the Lazarus pit, was he? Wasn’t Winnick’s awesome explaination of his return from the dead, Earth 2 Superman punching a wall?

    I thought this was an OK issue, apart from these distractions, the art was kinda up & down — some really nice panels & some panels that were butt-hole ugly. But, haven’t we had this "kill vs don’t kill" approach to crime story/debate about 5,000 times before? Az-Bats, Jason Todd recently etc etc etc.

  123. Avatar photo Urthona says:
    October 9, 2009 at 9:43 am

    Here’s why I don’t like Tan….that scene where the Penguin leaves the building was terrible storytelling.  Read that page 3 or 4 times and still felt like I wasn’t quite sure what happened.  There were fundamental storytelling problems there.

     Scenes like Red Hood unloading into Batman’s chest looked great, but don’t make up for the poor storytelling at times.

    Conor’s been defending Morrison’s Batman run since it started, can’t deny his consistency!

  124. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    October 9, 2009 at 11:35 am

    @Conor – I have read some of the Jason Todd Batman stuff, but not much and I certainly don’t remember anything like this.  Would you care to suggest a couple of trades (other than A Death in the Family) that feature Jason and are worth my time?  I can probably get them through my library.

    I agree 100% that Grant is bringing this up to highlight Jason’s "issues" (as I mentioned in my previous post). 

  125. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 9, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    @Wade: I dont think Winick brought it up; but apparently Talia Al Ghul put Jason in the pit. I think even though he was ressurected he was very weak and close to death again. He was buried and it took him hours to get out of the coffin. So I dont know how Talia knew he came back to life but she is the reason Jason is still around right now.

  126. Avatar photo skeets says:
    October 9, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    Still awesome.

  127. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 9, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    @Stuclach: I wish I could, but DC sucks at getting current stuff out in trades, so the Batman books of the mid-to-late 1980s would be a pipe dream.

  128. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    October 9, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    @conor – That’s too bad.  I will scrounge around on the library network and see if I can hunt anything down.  Any standout writers I should be looking for from that era?

  129. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 9, 2009 at 5:41 pm

    @stuclach: The original red-haired Jason Todd appeared in:

    Batman #357, 359-361, 363-365

    Detective Comics #524-531, 533

    And then CRISIS hit and he got rebooted with black hair and he first appeared in:

    Batman #408, 409

  130. Avatar photo DarkKnightDetective says:
    October 9, 2009 at 6:29 pm

    Correct me if Im wrong but in the original story didn’t Jason choose to dye his hair black? I dont remember it being Bruce who told him to do it.

    Even so, the post crisis Jason Todd was a much more interesting character. He grew up on the mean streets of East end and had trouble keeping his anger under control, and even murdered some mexican drug lord in one issue. Sure thats not what people might want from Robin but its still an interesting take that could be further explored, which was what Judd Winnick did. He took what was there and further developed Jasons anger and angst but didnt make him into a pyschopath which to me seems like the easiest and laziest approach Jason.

  131. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 9, 2009 at 6:39 pm

    @DarkKnightDetective: Except that Jason *was* a psychopath.

  132. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 9, 2009 at 6:42 pm

    @DarkKnightDetective: It’s also a *bit* of an understatement to say that an unrepentant killer is not what people would want in a Robin.

  133. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    October 9, 2009 at 7:59 pm

    @Conor – Thank you.  I would actually argue that we currently have an unrepentant killer as Robin, but Dick is trying to teach him that killing isn’t the best way.

  134. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 9, 2009 at 8:23 pm

    @stuclach: I can’t recall having seen Damian kill anybody — especailly not while wearing the uniform — just do a lot of boasting about how he *could* and *wants* to kill people.

  135. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 9, 2009 at 11:47 pm

    @conor: Although this probably doesnt technically count; in the first arc we meet Damien he does kill someone while wearing the outfit. He wasn’t offically called Robin, but he decided to wear the costume to piss off Tim. Then he shows that he cut off the head of a mob boss.

  136. Avatar photo captbastrd says:
    October 10, 2009 at 2:50 am

    @DarkKnightDetective
    Hmm, killed a Mexican drug lord? Killed a group of Mexican criminals in this issue? Methinks Jason Todd a racist. (Not really!)

  137. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    October 10, 2009 at 10:37 am

    @Conor – I seem to recall him killing (perhaps what TNC mentioned), but even if he hasn’t actually killed, I’m fairly certain he has tried.  Doesn’t he kill in #666?  Is someone a killer if he hasn’t killed yet, but you know (literally) that he will?

  138. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 10, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    @stuclach: No, I don’t think someone is a killer until they actually have killed. Damian may indeed have killed already, I don’t remember that story TNC was referring to.

  139. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    October 10, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    @Conor – Did me just inadvertently discuss the moral undertones of the film (and book) Minority Report?  I think we did.

  140. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    October 10, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    @stuclach: And they were wrong too!

  141. Avatar photo kwisdumb says:
    October 10, 2009 at 6:52 pm

    I thought this was definitely a stepdown from the first three issues, but I enjoyed it thoroughly and it was certainly a set-up from last issue. Won’t be POW, but was definitely one of the highlights of the week.

  142. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    October 11, 2009 at 12:02 am

    @conor: It was in the first story we ever see Damien. Robin and Damien weren’t getting along ever since Talia forced him onto Bruce’s life. When Tim was going back to the batcave, Damien waited for him. Damien was wearing another Robin costume and he showed the head of the mob guy he killed. Morrison wrote it to show just how serious of a killer the kid was.

  143. Avatar photo Urthona says:
    October 11, 2009 at 12:07 am

    The more I think about the Morrison stories I’ve liked (All Star Superman, the first 3 issues of B&R, the JH Williams Batman "Island of Batmen" story, almost all of Seven Soldiers, WE3), the more I realize that Morrison NEEDS a great artist more than any other writer I can think of…there is something too complex about his stories for average artists and the whole mess falls apart.  Tan is average and this issue falls apart.  Probably if Quitely drew it I’d be raving about how awesome and thought-provoking the issue was.  Some people can see through the art to the original vision..others like me can’t.

     

  144. edward says:
    October 11, 2009 at 12:26 am

    how come no one has raised the issue of jason’s pubic hair yet?

    post-crisis, does the carpet match the drapes?

  145. Avatar photo Urthona says:
    October 11, 2009 at 10:40 pm

    Everyone knows that all the Robins shave.

  146. Avatar photo theegreatone says:
    October 13, 2009 at 12:56 am

    Flamingo is here!

     

    I’m loving it and I’m excited to see Morrison handle Jason. Plus I am curious what kinds of villains they would create. 

  147. Avatar photo JesseG says:
    October 17, 2009 at 8:00 pm

    A little late to the party…. but I like Tan, I don’t know anything about Jason Todd or Redhood and I thought this issue was better than #1 and #3, which were both drawn by FrankQ. I hate when the reveal of somebody is drawn out because 3/4 of the time it is some b or c list character that I have only a vague idea of what the significance is. So just being told straight up who the red hood is was nice for me.

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