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BATMAN #678


Price: $2.99
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  1. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    June 30, 2008 at 8:15 pm

    Cannot fucking wait for this! People are still iffy on Final Crisis, but Morrison has done no wrong with R.I.P.! Here’s to more confusing plot points and more shit for Batman. I still have a feeling his Dad is gonna play a major part in this series.

  2. flapjaxx says:
    June 30, 2008 at 8:26 pm

    Yeah, if I’m anticipating part 3 this much, then by the time parts 5 and 6 roll around you’re probably going to find me in a catatonic state, continually refreshing the dccomics.com shipping list to make sure the issues aren’t pushed back.

    Based on the cover and on one of Tony Daniel’s interviews, I think in this issue we’re going to see the return of a weird 1950s monster called the Rainbow Creature. Fukked up.

    Oh, and by the way, Joe Chill is still my pick for the Black Glove. I called it with issue 674.

    I haven’t had this much fun reading a monthly series since DC cancelled the reprint series of Alan Moore’s Swamp Thing run ("Essential Vertigo: Swamp Thing"–it was new to me then) ten years ago.

  3. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    June 30, 2008 at 10:49 pm

    Yeah! This series has been sweet as candy.

    I’m guessing now that RIP refers to Bruce retiring (forced or not, who knows?) as Batman — not the actual death of Bruce Wayne. Even though we all know it will be temporary, it’s still interesting to see how things pan out.

    I can’t wait to see what Grant Morrison was talking about when he said this story will contain the most shocking Batman revelation in 70 years! Huge call …

  4. Avatar photo droracle says:
    July 1, 2008 at 12:23 am

    This is the one storyline that DC is putting out right now I’m chomping at the bit for the next issue. I read JSA and I dig Final Crisis so far, but this Batman story has me on the edge, of my seat that is.

  5. Avatar photo WinTheWonderboy says:
    July 1, 2008 at 2:30 am

    wenseday can’t get here soon enough!!!!! seems like forever sinse the last issue come out.  but, much like all star superman it’ll most definitely be worth the wait.

  6. flapjaxx says:
    July 1, 2008 at 5:22 am

    It’s only been five weeks (I think), but the wait feels longer than that. 

    Also, in DC Universe #0 the Joker tells Batman that the Black Glove wants to hurt so bad that he’ll "never recover". But Morrison has said that Bruce will emerge from "R.I.P." stronger. So I think "R.I.P." stands for "Recovery Is Possible", referring to Bruce’s damanged psyche. (In some column Didio hinted that "R.I.P." might not stand for "Rest In Peace", and we pretty much know that Bruce isn’t going to die.)

  7. Avatar photo Eyun says:
    July 1, 2008 at 8:28 am

    I agree with everyone, Final Crisis has been getting the headlines but Morrison’s Batman has been bringing the meat! Along with Geoff Johns and Peter Tomasi, Morrison is owning DC right now.

    @flapjaxx – I completely agree that I don’t think RIP means Rest In Peace, but the ‘R’ could still mean Retirement. 

  8. Avatar photo thebouv says:
    July 1, 2008 at 12:30 pm

    I need to start on RIP and get the two previous issues.  New to Batman and this seems like a good addition to what little I’ve read so far.

  9. Avatar photo AlexG says:
    July 1, 2008 at 1:07 pm

    This arc got me to pick up this book for the first time in a LONG time

  10. Dmark says:
    July 1, 2008 at 1:32 pm

    If I just grab the last two issues plus this one will I have a clue about what is going on?

  11. Avatar photo rift1128 says:
    July 1, 2008 at 2:35 pm

    The first issue was decent start off and the last five pages will haunt me forever! The second issue freakin rocked so if it keeps going this strong Final Crisis will never compare.

  12. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    July 1, 2008 at 2:56 pm

    @Dmark – Well, it’s Grant Morrison, so … no promises. But yeah, it’s all you need to read.

    I’m with the peeps who are enjoying this book more than Final Crisis.

  13. Avatar photo cutty says:
    July 1, 2008 at 3:14 pm

    @ Dmark – If you can find them, I’d pick up Batman #672, 673, 674.  They are definately the strongest issues of Morrison’s run and are a nice little lead in to what I expect R.I.P. to be. 

  14. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    July 1, 2008 at 4:13 pm

    Just what the hell is the Rainbow Monster? I cant find it online and flapjaxx mentioned he may be a part of the story. Plus, I saw the newsarama preview and there’s little showings of this guy….He must be a really bad 50’s villian/monster. Cause this is just to bizarre, even for me.

  15. flapjaxx says:
    July 1, 2008 at 4:21 pm

    @TheNextChampion: The Rainbow Creature was in Batman #134 from 1960. (You can read the issue for free online if you are inclined to find it.) He is a really weird monster, but I don’t think he’s going to play into the story much. Based on the preview pages, I think he’s just something they threw into a flashback montage of the crazy adventures Batman used to have.

  16. flapjaxx says:
    July 1, 2008 at 4:46 pm

    Also, if anyone’s wondering just what the hell is happening on the cover, we’re seeing the spaceship Bat-Jet of the alien Batman (from Batman #113) speeding over Bruce’s head. The two "horns" on the cover of 678 are actually the fins of the ship:

    http://i32.tinypic.com/5wm22v.jpg

  17. Avatar photo Eyun says:
    July 1, 2008 at 7:03 pm

    @Dmark – Yep, jump on, dude. cutty has the best advice about the best place to start, but if you can’t find them I’d say you’ll do fine with RIP pt1.

    @flapjaxx – that pic is awesome. Something about old school Batman that just feels epic, and I’m getting that feeling with this run too. 

  18. Avatar photo cutty says:
    July 1, 2008 at 7:43 pm

    How many issues is this storyline?  And I’m not planning on picking up any of the detective comics, nightwing, etc… crossovers, is there really any reason to?

  19. Avatar photo Eyun says:
    July 1, 2008 at 7:57 pm

    @cutty – The checklist says only 6 issues (#676-#681) in the main book. I doubt the crossovers will add much to the story, apart from reactions, but I’m still gonna get them. The main reason to be looking at a crossover book is Nightwing… regardless of RIP, Tomasi is just owning that book right now and it’s fantastic.

  20. Avatar photo cutty says:
    July 1, 2008 at 8:02 pm

    I’ve never read Nightwing, I’ll definately check it out

  21. Avatar photo Eyun says:
    July 1, 2008 at 8:15 pm

    @cutty – It’s the ‘Freefall’ story you should read if you feel like checking it. The last issue is out this week, so if you can’t find the issues (it starts at #140) then hang on for the trade. But Tomasi’s writing is just spot on.

    Hope you give it a look, dude. 

  22. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    July 1, 2008 at 9:16 pm

    Wait, what? Rainbow Creature? Alien Batman? Spaceship Bat-jet? Huh?

    Oh yeah, this book is written by Grant Morrison.

  23. Avatar photo Eyun says:
    July 1, 2008 at 10:12 pm

    @WadeWilson – Priceless, dude!

  24. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    July 1, 2008 at 11:14 pm

    You would think this is turning into some type of space book. With monsters and aliens being mentioned in the first couple parts of the event. I guess Morrison is trying to prove how fucked up Batman’s life been and that he has no boundries on what random character to bring back or mention.

    Rainbow Monster still fucking creeps me out though. What were the DC writers smoking back then?

  25. Avatar photo cutty says:
    July 1, 2008 at 11:25 pm

    I just got done re-reading the previous issue.  I forgot all about the Thomas and Martha Wayne accusations that should be coming in this issue.  Its amazing how many different ideas Morrison is packing into these issues

  26. Avatar photo thebouv says:
    July 2, 2008 at 2:57 pm

    Picked up 675, 677, 678 today.  I can’t get my hands on 676 yet, but I’m still looking.  Nice to see the advice on going back to 672.  I’ll try to get those as well.

  27. flapjaxx says:
    July 2, 2008 at 3:18 pm

    ^If you want to wait a few weeks, I think in August they’re going to release a "Batman: The Black Glove" hardcover that collects 667-669, and 672-675. Really the entirety of Morrison’s run plays into this, though. Maybe the first four issues (655-658) don’t all that much, but 663-666 definitely do.

    I’m in England this week. And British comic shops don’t get their new releases until Thursday. 🙁

  28. Avatar photo Nate says:
    July 2, 2008 at 3:24 pm

    I’m I the only one who doesn’t get this? I feel so dumb after reading an issue because I don’t understand what happend. I’ve been reading comics for years and I thought that I could follow sequential storytelling okay, but I’m lost. I’ve got every issue of Morrison’s Batman (and more going further back) but I just don’t understand.

     Whew…It actually feels good to get that out in the open like that…

  29. Avatar photo cutty says:
    July 2, 2008 at 4:08 pm

    I don’t think you’re really supposed to understand the Bruce stuff at this point.  The line between what’s real and what’s hallucination has been blurred in this book for a while now.  it reminds me of watching Mulholland Drive – I’m not quite sure I get it, but its really fucking good

  30. Avatar photo Unoob says:
    July 2, 2008 at 6:45 pm

    @Nate

    Bro. Im as confused as you are. I feel like I’m the one walking around with my brain scrambled. 

  31. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    July 2, 2008 at 7:12 pm

    From Batman #113 – Story entitled "Batman – The Superman of Planet X":

    The Batman of the planet, Zur En Arrh, teleports the real Batman to his homeworld. On Zur-En-Arrh, Bruce Wayne has powers equitible to that of Superman. He assists the alien Batman in fighting off a horde of robot invaders. After the robots are destroyed, the alien Batman sends Bruce Wayne back home. He gives him his Bat-Radia device as a keepsake.

    http://en.dcdatabaseproject.com/Batman_113_(1958)

  32. Avatar photo stuclach says:
    July 2, 2008 at 7:14 pm

    The internets have just scared me with their limitless knowledge.

  33. Avatar photo Unoob says:
    July 2, 2008 at 7:36 pm

    Really?

    Space Batman is where they are going with this?

    Really? 

     

  34. Avatar photo Brandon2 says:
    July 2, 2008 at 8:07 pm

    I was looking forward to this book.  What a let down.  I don’t have a clue what’s going on.

  35. Avatar photo Nate says:
    July 2, 2008 at 8:42 pm

    Space Batman?

    @Unoob, you’re response makes me think of "Really? With Seth and Amy" on Weekend Update on SNL.  

  36. Indycwf says:
    July 2, 2008 at 9:00 pm

    This Morrison run is complex but I think many of you are making this way too difficult. If you read last issue you know that Bruce has been defeated and now later apparently drugged and left to wander the streets. In his drug induced state Morrison is having a field day with elements of past Batman lore. How much of this is real or just imagined remains to be seen. It seems the Black Glove may indeed be Thomas Wayne. ("My Butler" comment) What are his motivations? We still do not know. We know that Dick has been captured and been filled with Thorazine. We don’t know what happended to Ms. Jett.     

  37. Avatar photo Unoob says:
    July 2, 2008 at 9:21 pm

    @indycwf 

    They CANT be bringing back Thomas Wayne. Oh God! I hope not!

    Thats worse than bringing back a 6 pack of Uncle Bens, and 2 cases Gwen Stacy’s.

    That undermines the entire Batman origin.

    That would out suck One More Day by a century.

    When I saw the reference, I immediately discounted it as a giant red herring, but now that you pointed out the butler statement…. 

  38. Avatar photo sscurfew says:
    July 2, 2008 at 10:42 pm

    I love this book so far & i thought i knew what was going on till this issue but now i am not sure what the hell is going on,who is this other batman at the end ?

     

  39. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    July 2, 2008 at 11:01 pm

    @sscurfew – Which one?  The one on the very last page?  That’s Bruce.

  40. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    July 3, 2008 at 12:08 am

    @Unoob: Now why would it be so terrible is his dad is still alive? It wouldnt nessicarily ruin years of continuity…hell what story has his dad really been the main focus of anything? Gwen Stacy fucking Norman Osborne and One More Day was terrible cause it completely re-work (decades!) of storylines! If his dad has not appeared for over 60-70 years then there really is no continuity breach. This would just mean Wayne’s life got a whole lot shitty and crazier cause his dad is still alive and is trying to kill him!

    That being said, I have no fucking clue what is happening right now. lol So many references to old stories and Morrison is just having so much fun making Wayne feel so fucked up…It’s hard to tell what is reality and what is not. Still it’s a fun event and I cant wait for the next issue. I just hope we get further into the story and not just another issue of Wayne hallucinating his history.

  41. Avatar photo Unoob says:
    July 3, 2008 at 12:36 am

    @NextChamp

    I dunno man. The Wayne’s being gunned down in front of young Bruce, and him crying over their bodies, is just one of the most ICONIC SCENES EVER printed in comics. Heck in literature. If T.W. was implicit in the event, then Batman’s whole motivation is messed with. It’s not just all crime that created The Batman, it would be the direct act of Thomas Wayne. The Batman’s whole mission changes. and now, if his dad IS responsible for the act that made him the Bat, once he defeats Thomas Wayne, all the wind is out of his sails. Joe Chill was more or less a generic representation of a criminal. There was nothing personal there. It was a random act of violence. Thats why when even Batman dealt with Chill eventually, his mission was still strong. 

    If they do go through with this act of blasphemy, then they turn that night of random violence into a VERY personal matter that can be avenged. Game over. Bruce will have avenged the thing that drives him, The very thing that created him. No more reason for him to exist. Or at least not in any way as driven.

    That one night sent him on a mission to fight the crime he will never ever truly be able to win against forever. He may stop individual criminal acts, but they wont scratch that itch of the random act of that nights tragic events that created him. (Hence giving us awesome stories.)

    I am all for turning the world on it’s ear, but damn.

    Holler back Champ. 

     

  42. Avatar photo TLederz says:
    July 3, 2008 at 12:37 am

    what about that small creature above the head of batman on the last page? It may have appeared in other issues, but I’ve only begun reading Batman during the RIP story arc. Is it probably just a halucentaion?

  43. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    July 3, 2008 at 12:40 am

    @Unoob: I hear what your saying, and you are right. If Morrison goes to this idea that Thomas is still alive; then Batman’s whole reason for crime fighting is ultimately reduced to ‘what was the point?’ But what makes it a positive point is that Bruce now sees how desperate people are to kill and ruin people’s life; that he will have no choice to keep the Batman name alive, with or without him.

    I dont see this happening though, again Morrison is risking to much of reconning entire 60-70 years of history with one big event. But if he can write it well, then I can see a whole new agenda and tone of a series if he can make it read well. Even if he cant, hell DC will have another Crisis before the decade is over to sort this mess out. lol

  44. Avatar photo Unoob says:
    July 3, 2008 at 12:41 am

    @TLederz

    That was Bat-Mite. He’s been around for years. I dont like him either. lol.

  45. Avatar photo TLederz says:
    July 3, 2008 at 12:51 am

    @Unoob

    Alright so with a little wikipedia action i found out that Bat-Mite can only be seen by Bruce. Now with his whole halucenegenic state, could this not be a retcon of the whole Bat-Mite thing into just being strictly a drug induced halucentation? This may just be me reaching for threads that arent there, cause honestly, this book confused the hell out of me. 

  46. Avatar photo xmanslade says:
    July 3, 2008 at 1:50 am

    yeahbuwhat

  47. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    July 3, 2008 at 2:00 am

    Wow. I was really enjoying Batman RIP until this issue. Bruce hanging out with a bum all issue, while having hallucinations just isn’t my idea of awesome superhero action. Just my opinion. And the ending? Ugh … colourful crazy alien Batman … I’m so disappointed right now.

    All these flash backs Bruce is having to old time comic stories … I thought all pre-crisis stories were ret-conned out of continuity & "never happened"? So how can he have memories of them?

    I’m confused.

  48. Avatar photo NealAppeal says:
    July 3, 2008 at 2:47 am

    @wade I disagree with you on this one. I enjoyed the hell out of this issue. I don’t know what it means. I think it might be screwing continuity to hell (and not in a good way), I’m not sure how I feel about bruce being crazy, but I enjoyed the hell out of it anyway. And I interpretted the last page as being goddamn crazy batman rather than literally space batman. I mean, he made his own costume and he thinks that radio the dead bum gave him is a bat-radia. He’s on drugs! If you’re Batman, and you get beat up and crazy high maybe you see dead people and think you’re space batman. Sounds good enough for me. I don’t even care if he really is space batman, that was a fun issue.

  49. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    July 3, 2008 at 4:09 am

    @Neal – I wrote that post literally as soon as I put the comic down, and was kinda in shock I guess. The last issue was so awesome in my eyes, and I had hopes of this issue being just as great. I think you’re right about Bruce being insane/drugged and not really an alien Batman. I guess I don’t like the idea of Bruce being so out of control & borderline insane, when his greatest strength has always been his mind. So, a crazy/drugged out Batman where you don’t know what’s real & what isn’t, and add to the mix Batmite (a character I’ve never had love for … he just seems so out of place in Batman comics) just isn’t a story I am so amped about reading now.

    I’m not sayin’ I’ve given up on the whole arc — I just didn’t enjoy this issue, and it’s dampened my enthusiasm for the event.

     

  50. flapjaxx says:
    July 3, 2008 at 6:42 am

    There’s nothing in this issue to suggest that Thomas Wayne is back.

    That’s Dr. Hurt wearing the "First Batman" costume (which Thomas Wayne did wear once upon a time), and I’m sure it’s part of his plan to screw with Bruce’s head more. When Bruce returns to the Batcave he’ll see that and THINK his father has returned. In an old issue from the early ’80s, Dick Grayson put that costume on to talk to a deranged Bruce.

    Why would the "I’ll make him my butler" comment insinuate that Thomas Wayne is back? He’s going to make his son his butler? That comment bears no hidden meaning; it WOULD if ALFRED was saying it, if ALFRED was waearing the costume, but we can see in the same panel that Alfred is unconscoius.

    Also "Space Batman" is not "where they’re going with this". Bruce is just hallucinating.

  51. Avatar photo comicdork37 says:
    July 3, 2008 at 9:35 am

    I’m going to save my comments for when this is all said and done. All I know right now is that I spend 3 times as much time online trying to figure out what I just read each issue than enjoying the actual issue.  

  52. Avatar photo Kory says:
    July 3, 2008 at 10:03 am

    I’m Lost

  53. Indycwf says:
    July 3, 2008 at 10:08 am

    I now have to agree with flapjaxx that it is Dr Hurt wearing the "First Batman" costume. I looked at those pages again. I think others are right that DC would not allow T Wayne to be alive.  I think the mystery is weather T. Wyane was a "bad guy" or not. If indeed he was corrupt this would be enough to have Bruce question the logic of his Batman career.  

  54. Avatar photo CharlieBlix says:
    July 3, 2008 at 10:18 am

    What if that is Bruce wearing the "first batman" costume and the whole drugged out Bruce and Bum storyline is taking place inside his head.  It’s the "good" Bruce trying to gain back controle over the "bad" Bruce (Dr. Hurt).

     I would say thats crazy but this is a Morrison comic we are talking about.

  55. Avatar photo Kimbo says:
    July 3, 2008 at 11:12 am

    this made zero sense to me.

  56. Avatar photo cutty says:
    July 3, 2008 at 11:40 am

    That’s pretty interesting that maybe Dr. Hurt and Bruce are the same person.  Dr. Hurt originally showed up to create 3 new batmans in case the 1st one didn’t work out, wouldn’t that be something Bruce would do as a contingency plan to save Gotham City if he died?  And Hurt seems to know everything about him.  Plus lets be honest, its the same face with a different haircut

  57. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    July 3, 2008 at 1:53 pm

    Most comments ever.

    Seriously, if you a huge Batman fan…and who isnt?….then your gonna love this arc. If you know about his past stories and events, your gonna get all the references. It just seems like people are confused or hating this issue cause they just didnt understand what is going on.

    Either you can interpret that he thinks he’s an Alien Batman from Zur-Eh-Arrh who dresses up in bright clothes and has Bat-Mite in his side. Or just that it that Wayne is high as fuck and doesnt know what is going on.

    Anyway you put it, it’s a fun event and I’m sure the 4th part will be even more fucking confusing.

  58. Avatar photo NealAppeal says:
    July 3, 2008 at 4:49 pm

    @wade I see what you’re saying. If I didn’t read it myself and someone described to me what was going on I don’t think I’d be that eager to read it. I think I liked so much because I wasn’t that into the first issue, and the second I found to be only a bit better, so my expectations for this were, "Well, this might be anywhere from totally awesome to god-awful." So I was happy with what I got.

  59. Avatar photo TLederz says:
    July 3, 2008 at 5:10 pm

    For all those conufsed why the talk of Thomas Wayne is coming up, i belive in the last issue some guy (forget who) had put together a dossier for Comissioner Gordon, oultining who the Wayne’s really were. In that issue they say that child barely resembled thomas, or something along those lines, and really that it may have been the child of the butler, whom i assume is alfred. Now if it was alfred, having the butler tied up during the scene, and the butler comment that seems to be the lynchpin of the arguement would make perfect sense. He’s the son of the Wayn’es butler, so its in his blood that he should be a butler for life. It also talked about how that the murder had been set up by Wayne, to kill his wife that betreyed him and fake his own death. Thank you wikipedia.

  60. flapjaxx says:
    July 3, 2008 at 5:30 pm

    @TLederz: Right, the only people who think Thomas Wayne is coming back are those who took that (probably forged) file on the Wayne’s seriously. The "some guy" who was talking to Commissioner Gordon was the Mayor of Gotham, who throughout Morrison’s entire run has been an antagonist trying to drive a wedge between Batman and Gordon. The Mayor is probably also a member of the Black Glove organization. In 676 one of the first things we hear is Dr. Hurt tell Hunchback is not to worry about the man he killed, because the Black Glove can just forge medical files to make it look like the guy had "a documented history of paranoid SCHIZOPHRENIA". Then in 677–the next issue–we hear Gordon responding in disbelief at files about Bruce Wayne: "Bruce is reckless inconsistent…but SCHIZOPHRENIC?" Put 2 and 2 together: the Black Glove forged the Wayne files.

    Or else just ask yourself, would DC really how Bruce’s origin to be uprooted like that? Thomas Wayne being alive–being alive and being evil–that just ruins everything. 677 was full of red herrings. I’m telling you Hurt is putting that old Bat costume on just to screw with Bruce once he shows up. It’s a reference to how Robin once dressed up in that costume to pretend to be Bruce’s father once in the early ’80s.

  61. Avatar photo YannickV says:
    July 3, 2008 at 6:27 pm

    I am lost! But I am enjoying this. I hope the next issue will make some things clearer.

  62. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    July 3, 2008 at 6:29 pm

    Wow, lots of comments here. Dig it. 🙂

    I guess I wasn’t very articulate with what I was trying to say earlier, I guess I get too excited sometimes & type before I think. Who am I kidding? Me just not so smart. Me not good at type.

    Here is what I was trying to get across — I wasn’t into this issue for the main reason that I don’t like having to decipher what is going on in a story, what is real, what is a dream, if characters are ghosts/hallucinations etc. I don’t enjoy having to read a story 2-3 times to understand it. That’s just my personal preference.

    I found something that somebody wrote on another message board that made this issue clearer to me & might help others —

    "Honor Jackson is real (most likely). The drug dealer in Crime Alley knew him, and he showed up two issues ago when Batman saved him from being run over by that carjacker. What he was to Bruce during this insane odyssey is just a guide. A physical face to put to his mind trying to cope with the disorientation of recovering from a massive drug overdose and memory loss. I liked that he popped up again, though. Morrison made him quite distinctive-looking a couple issues back, giving him the one-lensed sunglasses of Baron Samedi and creating a guise of Death about him. Now we finally see how that all plays out."

    Makes sense to me, but thats my whole point — I don’t wanna have to re-read an issue over & over & search message boards to figure out a story.

    And as far as the Thomas Wayne thing? If DC thought bringing back Jason Todd got a lot of bad reactions, try bringing back Thomas Wayne. It would  totally ruin the character of Batman. I never serioulsy considered this a possibility until I was reading this thread … because even if it was revealed that Thomas Wayne was Dr Hurt, it doesn’t make it fact. It might be a dream, a drug induced hallucination a clone … and a million other things with Morrison in charge. 

  63. Avatar photo comicdork37 says:
    July 3, 2008 at 6:49 pm

    I think I have figured it out. I have tricked myself into thinking that Grant Morrison is for me. After all the hype that I have heard and read about his books over the years he just doesn’t live up to it in my opinion. That’s not to say that he writes bad books (obviously LOTS of people like his work) it’s just that every time I try to read something from him I get lost, frustrated, feel like I’m missing something and have to work way too hard to read, understand and enjoy the story (so I guess the blames on me).

    Call me lazy but I’m just not up enough on my DC continuity and history to follow this stuff unless it’s spelled out for me and as stated in a previous post I don’t like spending more time online trying to figure out what I’m not understanding than reading the actual comic. With all that said I will finish what I started with RIP and leave the Morrison books to the comic book intellectuals, scholars and historians. I hope this all makes sense at the end of the arc.

  64. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    July 3, 2008 at 9:01 pm

    "Call me lazy but I’m just not up enough on my DC continuity and history to follow this stuff unless it’s spelled out for me and as stated in a previous post I don’t like spending more time online trying to figure out what I’m not understanding than reading the actual comic."

    You’re lazy.

    Just kidding … I agree with you. Especially about spending more time doing research on a comic than reading it.

    I’ve been reading Batman & DC for over twenty years and still was lost with all the old story references. The average fan wouldn’t know about stories from from 50 years ago, so I guess this story is splitting the fanbase into two camps — those who enjoy all the Wiki reading & back story hunting, and those who want all the information they need to enjoy a comic to be in the actual the comic book.

    Put me in the second category.

  65. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    July 3, 2008 at 10:20 pm

    *scratches head*

  66. Avatar photo WilliamKScurryJr says:
    July 3, 2008 at 10:55 pm

    I’m lost, not enjoying this, and from what I can understand, this is not even a particularly well-executed story, considering what little actual narrative is making it on the page. It truly seems like an exercise in montage, more than anything.

    Also, the Tony Daniel/Sandu Florea teaming is the worst the 1990s have to offer… shame on Mike Marts for assembling that art team. You have a high profile event in your high profile book, and you get castoffs from the Malibuverse to ilustrate it?

  67. Avatar photo WilliamKScurryJr says:
    July 3, 2008 at 11:03 pm

    The more I think about this, the angrier I get — without having read the inscrutable Silver Age stories, you are totally adrift here. What kind of editing job is going on here?

  68. Avatar photo Hawkboy says:
    July 4, 2008 at 12:05 am

    Batman Silver Age stories are inscrutable?  I don’t think so.

  69. Avatar photo NealAppeal says:
    July 4, 2008 at 2:58 am

    I didn’t know any of the silver age references before hand and I really enjoyed it. The last page had me going WTF, but I still thought it was totally awesome. I think it tied in well thematically with Final Crisis, the idea of a biblical-type fall. Afterwards I looked all the stuff up and a friend sent me a long some of the old silver age issues (that batman of planet x one is totally awesome). I think it’s pointless to agonize about where it seems to be going, and I think if you just kick back and don’t worry about the references you’ll enjoy it. And if you want to look stuff up later, you’ll just enjoy it more.

  70. Avatar photo AlexG says:
    July 4, 2008 at 9:59 am

    I don’t know the Silver Age references either and frankly I don’t think it matters at all. The whole thing is a mind trip anyway. This story is NOT about silver age arcana…it’s about Batman breaking down…it’s about the bat-family breaking down. And I’m fascinated that Morrison, a vocal proponent of hallucinigenics, puts them in the hands of the villains here. I think there’s something more to this though. I think we’ll see Batman come out the other side alive, but fundamentally changed. We may be experiencing a Batman paradigm shift, which hasn’t happened since Miller.

  71. Avatar photo Eyun says:
    July 4, 2008 at 10:51 am

    Great to see so much cool discussion going on about this. I loved this issue, but I’ll happily admit to not understanding 100% of what’s going on. But that doesn’t bother me, as I like to think we’re mid-season at the moment and all will be explained by the end.

  72. Avatar photo WilliamKScurryJr says:
    July 4, 2008 at 1:43 pm

    I beg to differ about unfamiliarity with the Silver Age references. When the first panel is a close-up of something called a "Bat-radia" — which seemingly ties into the climax at the end — how can you ignore that and get through the narrative? It’s a key element to the plot!

  73. Avatar photo NealAppeal says:
    July 4, 2008 at 2:35 pm

    @WilliamKScurryJr I thought I figured enough out just by context. He had a weird bat-gadget was all I needed to know. If I knew the references I might have seen the ending coming, and you know what? I’m glad I didn’t. I’m glad I had know idea what the bat radia was. I wouldn’t have even known there were references to get if not for the comments here. And I still liked it!

  74. Avatar photo AlexG says:
    July 4, 2008 at 2:51 pm

    I agree with NealAppeal. I have never seen a "bat radia" before, but let’s face it, a little gadget with the the "bat" prefix? yeah, I get it. As Conor often says "everything you need is on the page…"

  75. Avatar photo WilliamKScurryJr says:
    July 4, 2008 at 4:10 pm

    OK, cleverly-named Bat gadget aside, am I supposed to know what "Zur-Eh-Arrh" or the rainbow Bat costume are?

  76. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    July 4, 2008 at 5:51 pm

    I think I know why I didn’t like this issue. I have read all over the internet message boards (here included) about 700 different theories as to what happened in this issue. Everyone thinks they are right (but hey, it’s the internet, what are ya gonna do?) and have figured out what’s gonna happen next.

    But I don’t think anyone knows yet. No one but Morrison. And some people are having fun with it, the mystery & being clueless, some people are playing like they are Mr Know-It-All, "Hey look at me, I’m so intellectual & arty I know what’s going on, and the only reason you don’t is because you’re beneath it" and some people are just annoyed by it all — like me … can ya tell? lol.

    My point is — If so many different people have different ideas as to what happened, then this issue wasn’t clear, and in my opinion that makes it a bad issue. I know every story is open to interpretation, but interpreting sub text & knowing what the hell is going on, are two completely differnet things. By the end it will all make sense (maybe) and looking back at this issue when the story is done, we will all understand it. I loved the last issue before this one, & I think this will be a strong story by the end, and I will just look back on this as a "bad chapter" in a good story. Reading it in trade will help, because you wont have to wait a month (or longer) to know what’s happening.

    Sorry to rant about it, I’ve just been reading a lot of message boards trying to decipher this issue, and there is so many know-it-all dickheads, it reminded me why I like posting here. This place has some type of filter for people like that. Without bein’ a kiss ass, this is easily the best group of people I have found to talk comics with. So, thanks for reading & letting me vent, lol.

  77. Avatar photo NealAppeal says:
    July 4, 2008 at 7:33 pm

    @wade I agree with you about this site. I’ve looked around for a message board to join, but nothing compares to the comments and reviews on this site. This place has a ton of people I disagree with, and a ton of people who disagree with each other, but I think only once have I seen a mean spirited remark here, and on the internet, that’s a special thing.

  78. Avatar photo TheNextChampion says:
    July 4, 2008 at 11:26 pm

    If anyone is having a problem with the story….then just dont think about this Silver Age references! Just think of it as Bruce Wayne being heavily drugged, hallucinating, and the bad guys winning. I’m sure it’s gonna get more fucked up as we go on, but I think we can enjoy this book without freaking out over these references.

  79. Avatar photo TehDave says:
    July 5, 2008 at 2:02 pm

    @ wade

    "If so many different people have different ideas as to what happened, then this issue wasn’t clear, and in my opinion that makes it a bad issue."

    man, that’s tough. what other art form would say that? nobody ever has the same experience when they hear a piece of music, see a film, or do anything related to art. for a piece of art to be able to support lots of different interpretations is just as easily viewed as a strength, i think. if we all agree on what happens and what it all means…well, that can be a little boring. 

  80. flapjaxx says:
    July 5, 2008 at 4:38 pm

    "Seven Soldiers of Victory"? Couldn’t get into it; felt daunting and have huge doubts that reading all those mini-series would be worth it in the end.

    "Invisibles"? Tried to read it three times, couldn’t get past the first story arc. Tried an issue from the second arc and hated it.

    "Arkham Asylum"? Way overrated. At one time it was the best-selling DC graphic novel in history. I think that’s a shame

    "JLA"? I found it okay but not worthy of the hype. Banal at times, I’d say. Sorry.

    But Morrison’s Batman run? WOW.

    I’m sorry, guys who don’t like it, but the clues are all over the place. Not that I think anyone who can’t follow it is "stupid", or that anyone who doesn’t want to is unintellectual or whatever. Not at all. And I like that on iFanboy people are so respectful of others’ opinions. This site is mostly about talking about reviewing what we enjoy or don’t enjoy, not arguing about whether anyone is right or wrong for feeling how they do–and I love that about this place. Even the reviewers we’ve had who give the story a "1"–that makes me smile.

    When Alan Moore was accused of just making his Promethea series basically 32 issues of propaganda about his own beliefs about the validity of magic, he made no bones about it and said, "Yeah, so what? There’s a hundred other comics on the shelves, and I think there’s room for one that does something different." When Andy Warhol was asked what he had to say to his critics who called his work cheap, easy and superficial, he said something like "How can I respond? All my critics are right." Everyone complaining about "Batman R.I.P."–most of you are right too. But surely there’s room for one title like this on the comic shelves, that draws the mystery out to ridiculous lengths without giving clear insight into what’s happening until the very end. I wouldn’t have it any other way. I’ve had so much fun trying to figure this out over the last few months. Even if Morrison gets struck my lightning tomorrow and isn’t ever able to finish the series–knock on wood–I’d say the detective work he’s given us still would be worth it even if there’s never an answer!

  81. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    July 5, 2008 at 6:40 pm

    @TehDave – I see what you’re saying & maybe I was harsh. I fully understand how any art form is open to interpretation & can be viewed differently by every person, because of thier own personal perspective/experiences etc. I just feel like this is different because the basics of the actual events are very unclear. Was the bum real? Someone in disguise? A ghost? Is the whole issue all in Batman’s head? Is it all a dream & he is still inside the cave or in the isolation chamber?

    If the basic plot moving the story is this unclear & there is so many options as to what actually happened, as opposed to what does something represent artistically — in my opinion that’s not a good thing. It seems as if about half the people who read this are confused as hell, and don’t wanna spend the time re-reading issues or Wiki hunting to make sense of it. In my eyes, that’s not a good issue.

    But let me be clear, I like Morrison’s run & the first two issues of R.I.P. — just not this particular issue.

    @flapjaxx — Yesterday I went back & read through Morrison’s Batman run (this is how I spent my Saturday, I’m a cool guy, right?) & things in R.I.P. are more clear to me now. There was a lot of things I had forgotten, because I read too many comics or I have a bad memory (or both) and I didn’t realise how much of Morrison’s run would affect R.I.P. But, you’re right, looking back on it, there is a lot going on in the whole run that’s important to R.I.P.

    Like I said before, I think R.I.P. is kinda splitting the comic readers into two groups — those who are having fun with all the study & guess work, and those who are baffled by it all & annoyed by the deliberate fogginess of the story. There is a big difference between a mystery & not knowing what’s going on.

    Imagine the kids who see The Dark Knight & decide to pick up some Batman comics for the first time & read this story. If it’s confusing half of regular comic readers now, how hard is this going to be to get into for a brand new reader? 

  82. Avatar photo Kory says:
    July 5, 2008 at 8:19 pm

    I’ve read it 4 times…still don’t get it and btw what’s the deal with the drug dealer w/ bruce the whole issue

  83. Avatar photo WilliamKScurryJr says:
    July 5, 2008 at 9:18 pm

    I loved the Invisibles, Final Crisis, Arkham Asylum, JLA, All-Star SM, We3… but Seaguy, Seven Soldiers, and this are proving to be impenetrable. I guess that G-Mo works in two different states of mind depending on the project.

  84. Avatar photo comicdork37 says:
    July 5, 2008 at 11:41 pm

    Went to the library the other day and found a bunch of back issues from Morrison’s current run on Batman (the stuff before RIP) and it didn’t help. There were some good stories in there but still didn’t shed any light on what I am reading in RIP. Maybe I’m just not looking hard enough or doing enough drugs.

  85. Avatar photo NealAppeal says:
    July 6, 2008 at 1:12 am

    @WilliamKScurryJr The end of Seven Soldiers was unclear and the anwers weren’t really worth all the work I had to do to figure them out (and not even close to being worth as much as a good old fashioned solid ending) but I still really liked Seven Soldiers. It could have been stronger if it had actually managed to come together at the end, but it was so dense with characters, ideas, worlds and stories that I sill really love it.

    Seaguy on the other hand. I understood the plot. There were some things that were awesome in it. But I didn’t find any of the characters compelling and I didn’t find the story particularly exciting. There’s supposed something to "get" in that, or so I’ve been told, but I’m never been a fan of "this is what that really means" storytelling. I don’t buy it. The meaning might be there in the writer’s mind, but if nothing is really commincated it ain’t really there. I’ve heard it explained, by G-Mo no less, and no that ain’t what’s going on. It doesn’t count if you only think about it and then tell me about it later. Fiction is not about hiding meaning from the reader. It’s about communication.

    This Batman arc so far – there’s enough there for me. I feel commincated to. I ideas are coming across. I like the characters. I like the way it’s making me feel. I don’t feel like there is meaning being hidden from me–or at least no more than is appropriate for a mystery. I don’t feel like I’m being told "You’ll only understand this if you read Batman 113".

    It is still very possible that Morrison will give an unsatisfactory ending that makes no sense and that you will only know the "real" meaing of after he explains it in some interview. Actually, I think there’s inevitably going to be something of that to the ending, just because G-Mo’s that kind of guy, but I’m hoping for a conclusion that I’ll be able to enjoy, too, aside from all this meaning bullshit.

  86. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    July 6, 2008 at 1:22 am

    "I’ve read it 4 times…still don’t get it"

    For this type of comment to be SO common for this issue is why I don’t think it’s a good issue.

  87. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    July 6, 2008 at 2:54 am

    I can’t find the link but in a recent interview someone asked Dan Didio what he could tell us about Final Crisis and R.I.P to which he responded "I don’t know. In Grant we trust".

    *scratches head*

  88. Avatar photo Kory says:
    July 6, 2008 at 10:13 am

    @JumpingJupiter- That is why Marvel is outselling DC 2 to 1 with Dan Didio running things.  At least Marvel tries to make some sense of their universe, for instance how can Batman be hanging out  w/ the JLA in Final Crisis but wandering the streets homeless in his own book?

  89. Avatar photo Kory says:
    July 6, 2008 at 10:15 am

    @NealAppeal- I should not have to wait for Morrison to give me an explanation of what happened otherwise why should I buy any the books he writes

  90. Avatar photo Eyun says:
    July 6, 2008 at 12:21 pm

    @WilliamScurryJr – "G-Mo"… Dude, I love that! Attention, iFanboys, this is what we’re calling Morrison from now on! I’m not even joking, I think that’s great!

  91. Avatar photo Kory says:
    July 6, 2008 at 1:24 pm

    @Eyun- I concur "G-MO" is what we should call him from now on.

  92. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    July 6, 2008 at 3:04 pm

    @Kory – Marvel is not outselling DC 2-1, that’s hyperbole.  Also, the "how can one character have all this bad stuff happen in one book while hanging out in a team book" thing is as old as team books themselves and is certainly not something new to DiDio.

  93. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    July 6, 2008 at 3:35 pm

    And just to back up my statements with facts:

    Total Market Share 2007 (Dollar)

    Marvel – 40.25%

    DC – 31.92%

    Total Market Share 2007 (Unit)

    Marvel – 44.72%

    DC – 34.71%

  94. Avatar photo NealAppeal says:
    July 6, 2008 at 3:43 pm

    @Kory I agree that you shouldn’t have to wait for him to explain his stories. But even his work that has that problem is still very interesting and often worth the cover price despite it. And most of his endings you can still get something out of, even if it isn’t the grand meaning he was supposedly putting in there.

    Why should you buy his work? Because a lot of it is very very good.

  95. Avatar photo sscurfew says:
    July 6, 2008 at 5:14 pm

    thanks Conor thats what i was wondering i thought it was, but  when he called himself the batman of ZUR-EN-ARRH and wore a kind of batman/robin outfit!i was like what is this, stilll not sure on that but atleast i know for sure it is Bruce now thanks again!

  96. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    July 6, 2008 at 7:21 pm

    Looking past all the re-reads & Wiki searching, now I finally get this issue (as much as you can) I still don’t like it. Bruce Wayne trippin’ balls, hangin’ with a homeless guy & vomiting in the street isn’t enjoyable superhero comics to me.

    But, I guess that’s the idea, right? For it to be disturbing to see Batman so broken down.

    I think this story will work better in trade … if it’s all explaind & has a decent ending. That’s a pretty big "if" right now.

  97. Avatar photo Kory says:
    July 6, 2008 at 10:02 pm

    @Conor- I was not insulting DC, I’m a DC fan and I did’nt know the sales figures, I just go by what I hear in the shop and I stand corrected.  And about continuity with team books and single books go easy on me I’m relatively new to comics so I’ve always assumed that all the issues were in the same continuity not jumping around, I just got confused while reading Final Crisis and Batman together it was an honest mistake, just go easy on me next time. Last, my swipe at Didio was maybe a little uncalled for, I’m just a little angry at Grant Morrison right now because of Batman this week and I did’nt want to hear someone say they trust Morrison with anything.  So to Dan Didio I apologize.

  98. Avatar photo Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:
    July 6, 2008 at 10:51 pm

    @Kory – I wasn’t being hard on you.  Most issues in teh same universe are in the same continuity, up to a point.  When Wolverine is in 10 books a month, it’s never going to all fit together.  The same with Batman.

  99. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    July 7, 2008 at 2:28 am

    A lot of people seem to be saying that Honor was a ghost or a hallucination. I thought he just committed suicide by jumping in the river. *shrug*

  100. GothamHeretic says:
    July 7, 2008 at 2:12 pm

    I was skeptical about this story till this issue, now I know for sure. I’m dropping this story. No, I haven’t been following all of Morrison‘s stories. I like non-linear stories and It’s not all that hard a story to follow. I just think this story arc is silly. I mean come on, BATMITE??? Really? After all that build up? Oooo, bad guys in bad costumes take over the bat cave and tie up Alfred? Cue the Pow! Biff! Bam! graphics.

  101. Avatar photo WilliamKScurryJr says:
    July 7, 2008 at 7:28 pm

    Since GMo and Kubert started rolling on this title however long ago, I’ve been just a little disappointed that it hasn’t fully lived up to that Neal Adams/Denny O’Neill comparison offered by the creative team early on. What’s more, this Batman seems like a starkly different character from the Dark Knight portrayed in Morrison’s "JLA" run, which isn’t bad — I would offer that Bats is more fleshed out here, actually.

  102. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    July 7, 2008 at 10:07 pm

    I’ve read a million comments & reviews of this issue since it dropped & just read this review over at Newsarama. It’s the best summary of the issue I have seen & thought I’d share it, even though now the new comics are up no one will see it … ah well. Check it —

    Review by Troy Brownfield

    The first two parts of “Batman R.I.P.” have, in my view, gone swimmingly. This issue, on the other hand, seems like more of a bump in the road as a combination of factors threw it off for me. One of the things not working for me in this issue would be some of the Morrisonian indulgences. I’m a big fan of Morrison, but the constant riffing on Silver Age stories in this one is a bit off-putting. I’m familiar with the stories being referenced, so I can’t imagine the confusion that would be present for someone who’s not familiar with those stories. In a way, it’s common to my knocks on Final Crisis #1; Morrison seems to, at this stage of his writing, expect everyone to have his vast knowledge of the history of the DCU.

    Another subcategory of the Silver Age references: is this supposed to be a tale the retrofits continuity? I know that people frequently bitch when you mention continuity in a review, but here’s the thing: if a company asks you to invest in their continuity, then it’s a fair question. So . . . is this story trying to grandfather some of those older tales back in, or is it merely using those old stories as items to feed the fever dream than the unraveling Bruce Wayne seems to be experiencing?

    I’m finding the art to be a bit of a challenge, too. I think that Daniel was fine of the first couple of parts, but his members of the Bat-family seem somewhat interchangeable. There’s not a lot of difference in face or anatomy between Bruce, Dick, and Tim, and it can make you stop and ask who’s where. The best example is early on; if you didn’t see the red bike and helmet fairly quickly, that young man could be Tim, Dick, or even Jason Todd (it’s Tim).

    Overall, I don’t think that this issue ruins “R.I.P.”. I typically enjoy surrealistic fare on its own merits, but Morrison lately seems to want to play surrealism and Silver Age referencing at the same time. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it’s wonky. Perhaps by the end of this arc, everything will make perfect sense. As it is right now, it feels like there’s perhaps a bit too much effort to make things seem strange and disconnected, rather than letting the dread and discomfort flow out of the story naturally.

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