BATMAN #682

Review by: Hawkeye

What did the
iFanboy
community think?

658
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Avg Rating: 3.9
 
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Size: pages
Price: 2.99

This review contains spoilers, click here to read

Story: 1 - Poor
Art: 3 - Good
 

Comments

  1. Indycwf says:
    December 4, 2008 at 5:58 am

    Actually this review? or "comment" you made is not very clear. I have read the first four pages of the preview from Newsarama and those pages are very clear as to what is going on. In fact I can’t wait to pick this up today. This continual "I don’t get what is going on" is starting to smell of classic collective behavior from mostly younger readers who know little of Batman lore and like simple linear stories with little need for thought past the 4 or 5 minutes it takes to read your average comic book.  

  2. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    December 4, 2008 at 8:07 am

    "This continual "I don’t get what is going on" is starting to smell of classic collective behavior from mostly younger readers who know little of Batman lore and like simple linear stories with little need for thought past the 4 or 5 minutes it takes to read your average comic book."

    Uncool thing to say. 

  3. flapjaxx says:
    December 4, 2008 at 9:32 am

    1) I don’t think the story is clear. It’s actually probably one of the most difficult mainstream comics I’ve ever read. So it’s perfectly understandable that people would get frustrated. Morrison’s actually going for a sort of realism (!) here because all he’s presenting us with are the scenes that the dreamer (Bruce) would see. Bruce would intuitively realize what parts of his life all these scenes are from, but the reader needs to know quite a lot of Batman history in order to not get lost.

    With that said, I hope some people need to realize that there’s a difference between a writer having "bad writing skills" and a reader having "poor or insufficient reading skills". This issue of Batman is definitely well thought-out and well written. There’s more information and cohesive (yes, cohesive) ideas in this book than in a year’s worth of most titles. It’s absolutely amazing how this is being orchestrated. This is like modernist literature, like a book of Faulkner’s, Woolf’s, or Joyce’s, and no one should have to apologize for trying to create art like that. But it’s totally understandable that many people wouldn’t be able to read it, or wouldn’t like it if they could.

    To the reviewer, sorry but Hurt’s origin is not hinted at here; you completely misread things, sorry. It’s not your fault, because you’re probably used to storytelling that requires little effort on the part of the reader. And what’s the Lump? Look it up–it takes five seconds! It’s a Kirby creation, but you don’t even need to know that, because the function of Lump in this story is explained in the first panel it appears in. I didn’t know Lump was a preexistent character before I looked it up, but the function of Lump in Batman 682 is self-explanatory. Next time you should think twice about trying to review something that you’ve made no effort to understand. Yes, it does take effort to understand this comic. Some art is difficult. Difficult art isn’t necessary better art, but unless you try to an effort to understand difficult art, then your opinion art it is basically worthless, and reviews like this sadly only stand as testaments to readers’ ignorance and laziness. 🙁

  4. Avatar photo JonSamuelson says:
    December 4, 2008 at 4:33 pm

    Could you two possibly be more condescending?

  5. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    December 4, 2008 at 4:39 pm

    Me no understand. Me barely functioning retard.

  6. Avatar photo Labor says:
    December 4, 2008 at 5:02 pm

    I can’t think of a single confusing detail in Morrison’s run. Everything from the Man-bats to Dr. Hurt to the 3 Batmen and even the psychosis of Batman is right there. Its all there on the page. It simply requires readers to actually think about their comics. Morrison’s stories don’t end when you flip the last page.

  7. Avatar photo Chris Rohling says:
    December 4, 2008 at 7:04 pm

    @ Indycwf.  I’m a younger reader (17) who hasn’t been complaining about this story.  I’m sorry, but that rash generalization was uncalled for.  You people wonder why kids and teens don’t read comics.  It’s becacuse of this  condescending attitude that seems to be prevalent in the entire industry.  This is honestly the first time I haven’t felt welcome at iFanboy. Thanks man.

    p.s.  You attacked a review of a book before reading it. Yeah, this wasn’t a great review by any means but at least read the thing before you trash it.  

  8. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    December 4, 2008 at 7:53 pm

    Intense.

  9. Avatar photo Toshimoko29 says:
    December 4, 2008 at 8:59 pm

    There’s a fine line between pretension and drivel. 

  10. Avatar photo Chris Rohling says:
    December 4, 2008 at 9:03 pm

    @JumpinJupiter.  Sorry, I wasn’t trying to flame.  I guess it sorta came off that way though.  Just get a bit testy whenever someone throws around the age thing. 

  11. Indycwf says:
    December 4, 2008 at 9:39 pm

    I agree that my comments were an unfair generalization. I do think Morrison is one of those writers that you either love or hate. That’s different than someone like Johns who I love as well but writes stories most everyone enjoys. I don’t understand how someone could give this book a 1! But hey it’s a free country and that is the beauty of literature. Authors always have critics. Young or old I hope our hobby includes everyone.   

  12. Avatar photo ultimatehoratio says:
    December 4, 2008 at 9:57 pm

    Wow, I’m literally choking on the pretension in here.

     I have to agree with this review.  Good luck to anyone who’s reading this and not Final Crisis.  I roll my eyes at people who use the "your stupid" response when someone says they don’t understand a comic.  If you’ve read RIP and none of Final Crisis, then this won’t make a whole lot of sense, or at least it won’t be as satisfying.  Hawkeye’s assesment of this book is not an unreasonable one.

    Flapjaxx, you should change your avatar to a guy in a powdered wig drinking a cup of tea with his pinky sticking out.  Shame on you for sullying the image of Kimota.

  13. Avatar photo VogonPoet30 says:
    December 4, 2008 at 11:04 pm

    The words FINAL CRISIS were clearly visible on the cover.  Maybe don’t read it if you don’t know what’s happening in the event?

    Morrison is ultra-polarizing around here, but I don’t think it can be successfully argued that he is "bad" writer.  His storytelling is different than what a lot of people look for in their mainstream fair, but it is possible to understand if you’re willing to try.

  14. Avatar photo ultimatehoratio says:
    December 4, 2008 at 11:15 pm

    It’s not unreasonable for a buyer of Batman to expect 682 to make sense as a follow-up to issue 681.  My assesment of this issue isn’t as harsh as this reviewer, since I am reading Final Crisis, but I understand where he’s coming from.  Besides, even though it’s got Final Crisis on the cover, Final Crisis came out several months ago so it’s not that easy to get on board.  What this means is that once this is all collected, Morrison’s final chapter in Batman (if this indeed is his last chapter) is going to read as smoothly as the rest of it.

    I thought this was okay but not brilliant.  Alan Moore wrote a similar but better story 20 years ago in Miracleman.  The art was mediocre.

  15. Avatar photo ultimatehoratio says:
    December 4, 2008 at 11:24 pm

    Oops I meant "isn’t going to read…"

  16. Avatar photo FACE says:
    December 4, 2008 at 11:44 pm

    ".. you should change your avatar to a guy in a powdered wig drinking a cup of tea with his pinky sticking out." – seriously, I’m trying not to piss myself.  

  17. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    December 4, 2008 at 11:53 pm

    Things get heated when discussing Morison’s writing only when the insinuations and oblique implications rear their ugly head.

    @Vogon: you said: "I don’t think it can be successfully argued that he is "bad" writer."

    To me, that’s sort of like saying, "I don’t think it can be successfully argued that green is a good color."

    It’s about context and perception. Green may be good if you see it in the garden but not so much if you see it on your meat. What I’m trying to say is that G-Mo’s style creates a lot of controversy because he breaks a lot of "rules" of writing. The argument then becomes, is this new way of writing or new "rule" good or bad. It also depends against which standards one measures his writing. I myself feel that clear and streamlined narrative is a virtue (likely due to my long time fascination with understated minimalism in all schools of art). Morison’s narrative is not streamlined nor particularly clear. It is ambiguous and knotted and this is demonstratable. To me this is not good. Green represents rotting meat here. Thus I successfully argue the flaws in his writing. But someone might see in this a healthy garden. we’re seeing the same green but from a different angle.

    @Everyone: A few misconceptions. The same ones I frequently encountered during my stint as a producer/host of a radio show featuring underground music.

    1: Unusual = smart
    2: Unusual = good
    3: Unusual = underground/not mainstream

    Though the above three can be true, they are less true than one might think.

    That’s my contribution for tonight.

    P.S: insert your own Dr. Seuss joke here and feel free to misquote me as comparing Grant’s writing to rotten meat.

    P.P.S: I will not be held responsible for any adverse effect my stitled analogies might have on your brain.

  18. Avatar photo VogonPoet30 says:
    December 4, 2008 at 11:58 pm

    Until Bruce’s memories start becoming distorted toward the end, this issue fits perfectly within the context of Morrison’s run.  It lays out his Unified Theory of Batman, in a way, accepting all the changes in tone that have occurred over 70 years of stories, etc..  When the reviewer starts by saying he hasn’t understood a single thing since the run started, I think it’s fair, Final Crisis tie-in or not, to point out that they might not want to pick it up anymore.  As for directly dealing with the events  of 681, I’m sure answers will come.  Some might not like said answers, but it’s not like the Batman line of books can really move forward without spelling out what happened eventually.

  19. Avatar photo VogonPoet30 says:
    December 5, 2008 at 12:22 am

    While his breaks from the "rules" (good use of quotation marks, btw) are apparent in some of his work (especially recently), I think most of his JLA run, We3, and a lot of his earlier writing shows that he CAN tell straightforward narrative.  I’m not going to sit here and say that I haven’t disagreed with some of his storytelling choices lately, but I do think that in most cases he gives the reader enough to put the pieces together.  While there are valid criticisms of his work, I feel like a huge majority of his detractors don’t pick their battles wisely, and it’s getting old.

    While we’re on the subject:  I’ve never done a drug harder than aspirin in my life, and I am able to comprehend the fiction of Grant Morrison.  It’s not all drug-addled psychedelia!  Writing off everything the dude writes as trippy, incomprehensible drivel is lazy….now I’m just venting.

     Anyway…you’re absolutely right about the absurdity of the good/bad argument, and you made my point much more clearly than I could have. 

     

  20. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    December 5, 2008 at 12:26 am

    Yup, it’s pretty much inevitable that friction will occur when you put so many critics/critiques in one place. At the end of the day though…

  21. Avatar photo VogonPoet30 says:
    December 5, 2008 at 12:58 am

    …it’s all in fun.

    Lively debate, and playing devil’s advocate in comic book discussion is way more fun than getting work done.

  22. Avatar photo Kory says:
    December 5, 2008 at 12:52 pm

    I’ll put it this way.  If this story had been written by a writer like Daniel Way, then most of the people calling folks like me dumb teenagers who need the story spoonfed to them would be down on this story as well.  But since Grant Morrison, AKA the smartest man in comics, is writing this people think it’s so deep and profound. It’s the point I made in the main thread, people think it’s great because it’s Grant Morrison, not because it’s a great story.

    It’s like Radiohead.  People tell me how they’re the greatest band ever, but I can’t stand their music.  All I hear is how "brilliant" they are, and how I need to listen closer, but at the end of the day I just don’t enjoy their music. 

    Same goes with G-Mo,  I just don’t enjoy this story, and $2.99 is alot to pay to get kicked in the groin every month, so will no longer buy any Batman issue with Grant Morrison’s name on the front.

    P.S.- The whole if you don’t get G-Mo’s "art" then you are lazy and ignorant statement is really one of the most pretentious things I’ve ever heard.  If you knew anything about art, you would know that art is subjective.  One man’s trash is another man’s Monet.  But to call someone ignorant and lazy because thay don’t like what you like is quite childish.  Which is ironic because people like me are being called dumb teenagers because they don’t like what Grant Morrison is doing.  Hmmm, Pot meet kettle.

     

  23. Avatar photo Kory says:
    December 5, 2008 at 12:54 pm

    I’m 24 by the way, not a dumb teenager 🙂

  24. Avatar photo VogonPoet30 says:
    December 5, 2008 at 1:10 pm

    To be clear:

    Yes, liking or disliking a piece of art is subjective.  Labelling things good or bad, however, is placing an OBJECTIVE value judement.  If people want to make OBJECTIVE good/bad statements, then it’s necessary to relate what "good" or "bad" writing is, something you can’t get everyone to agree on, and then show why the author fits the stated good/bad qualifications.  Jupiter did just that a few comments up the chain, and that’s an opinion that can be respected.  I guess I’m calling a lot of people’s criticism lazy, and not their comprehension-abilities.

    I’m fine with people not liking things, but I get tired of listening to people who dislike them, UNREASONABLY.

  25. Avatar photo Kory says:
    December 5, 2008 at 1:52 pm

    First I’m ignorant and lazy, now I don’t have a respectable opinion.  That’s cool.

  26. Avatar photo VogonPoet30 says:
    December 5, 2008 at 5:52 pm

    Where did I ever accuse you of anything? I’m not trying to pick a fight, here.

  27. Avatar photo Kory says:
    December 5, 2008 at 7:52 pm

    @vogonPoet30: When you said "Jupiter did just that a few comments up the chain, and that’s an opinion that can be respected." I thought you were saying I didn’t have a valid opinion because I didn’t get into specifics on why I dislike this story.  My bad on that one.

  28. Avatar photo Urthona says:
    December 5, 2008 at 10:34 pm

    Hey, just to pick up that one slim thread from the beginning…yea, didn’t this actually explain who Dr. Hurt was?  He was a guy at Arkham that Batman worked with so that he could undergo mental training via sensory deprivation…to me that was new!?!

    I’m both morbidly intrigued and sometimes hating the Morrison run.  For example, it just feels really brutal to have the RIP storyline where Bruce’s mind is completely addled, and then immediately follow it with another story where Bruce’s mind is completely addled.  I need a breather.

    On the other hand, this issue was really fun to read, had great art, and flowed very well.  The reveal at the end was definitely an "Oh wow" moment.

    FWIW – I used to be a teenager a long time ago, I don’t feel like I’m particularly smarter or dumber now than I was then.

  29. Avatar photo Urthona says:
    December 5, 2008 at 10:36 pm

    It would explain how Hurt could insert a secret command during Batman’s sensory deprivation.

  30. Avatar photo Chris Rohling says:
    December 6, 2008 at 12:03 am

    Is it a fair criticism to say that the book was a bit too… disjointed.  Jumping scenes is fine and definitely work for this type of story, but I didn’t feel like it was always made clear when the scene had changed.  I had trouble telling the difference between Dick and Bruce. That’s key to this story isn’t it? That’s obviously more of the fault of the artist.  Loved the art, just had that bit of trouble.  Maybe I’m the only one.   

  31. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    December 6, 2008 at 12:08 am

    @Anson: I didn’t read this book but that is one crit I have towards my G-Mo (in RIP). He sometimes writes choppy. But that’s just me.

  32. Avatar photo Spoons says:
    December 6, 2008 at 12:20 am

    Urthona, that stuff about Hurt was explained earlier Morrison’s run I think when the 3 batmen get introduced.  If you started picking this up after that I can understand why you wouldn’t know.  The only question I had about Hurt still was whether he is Thomas Wayne or not, which the more I think about it the less likely that seems.

     

    I thought this was the most accesible and easy to understand issue in quite a while, with the exception that Final Crisis being required reading for this to make sense.

  33. Avatar photo WadeWilson says:
    December 6, 2008 at 5:30 am

    Not to be condescending, but if you don’t understand Morrison’s writing, you are basically a retarded child, who drools & giggles with a thumb up his ass while watching Sesame Street.

    ^Sacasm.

    I think Jupiter’s post about the colour thing & kory’s Radiohead post sum it up — writing/art is a matter of taste. Strait up.

    But I gotta admit, the arrogant attitude of "If you don’t get RIP, you’re stupid, not trying hard enough or you’re an ignorant child" is pretty funny to me, so please keep it comin’.

  34. Avatar photo Chris Rohling says:
    December 6, 2008 at 11:10 am

    @Wade Totally agree with you man.  I think that art requires effort from the reader, but its still just ignorant to say that "if you don’t get it, you’re (insert explative)" 

     

    @Spoons.  Yeah, I marathon read the Morrison run the week before RIP came out.  I think that was my biggest mistake.  I just read it too fast.  I was almost forcing myself to get caught up. I loved most of the stories, except maybe the Resurrection of Ra’s but eh.  Crossovers are crossovers.  I knew for a fact I had to be missing stuff, because I had been hearing about all these supposed clues.  I’m definitely gonna go back and take more time with it when I have some actual free time on my hands.

  35. Avatar photo Hawkeye says:
    December 8, 2008 at 11:38 pm

    First of all.. Wow, who knew that a quick gut reaction made right after reading this issue could spark such a heated debate. Now second of all I would like to place my reading of this book into context. I am a comic fan through and through, and don’t try to claim that you know anything about me just because I don’t like Morrison’s Batman. I am 23 years old and I have been reading comics for roughly a third of my life, and while I may not be an enthusiast for his work, I can still think he can be a good writer, I loved All-Star Superman and I even own his omnibus from New X-Men. So please don’t think that I don’t get Morrison, because I know what he does and I know what kind of writer he is, that being said I can’t give him a pass just because of his name. But that’s true about anyone, I judge every story and issue for itself regardless of the character, writer or artist.

    Now that all of that is out of the way maybe I can give you all a more thought out version of my review of this issue. I can remember hearing that Grant Morrison and Andy Kubert would be taking over Batman that I was really excited. However I have been constantly disappointed with not just R.I.P. but his entire run, and I understand that most of that is just his idea of Batman, is not my idea of Batman. I can remember back during Batman & Son, Morrison tries to affirm the idea that Batman thinks of everything and has endless contingency plans by giving him a rocket. Which sets up the idea that Batman thinking that psycological attack is a possibility and decides to prepare for that too. I can see that, and you know what it actually makes sense. However its not that I think that it was a bad idea, the execution just wasn’t there for me. Within this issue itself we take a look over the career of the Batman, and we begin to see just how long this has been affecting Bruce. And then at the end he hints that the butler did it, which was actually kind of funny, because the butler is probably the last person you would expect in this case. My real questions with this issue are not really what The Lump was or even the appearance of Dr. Hurt, which apparently I misread. My real issue with this issue is that the "answers" really come out of no where. Morrison writes this completely psycological and complex storyline, that leaves people asking a lot of questions and then he just tries to give you all of them afterward, outside of the story. So I understand what is happening and where we stand now after R.I.P. but I just don’t really like the way we got there. I can’t claim to know what his intentions for this story were, but if they were to confuse and infuriate the frack out of me, then guess what he succeeded. 

    One of my biggest issues with the series as a whole is that I’m not sure where it sits in context to the larger Final Crisis story. Which I am reading by the way, I’m not sure why people thought I wasn’t reading it. And since Grant Morrison is writing both I would hope that he would be able to keep them in line with one another. If this falls after Final Crisis, then it spoils the ending of that which is barely half over, and if it falls before then how long before. This two-part story is supposed to tie it together, however this first issue just gave me more questions.

    Now onto the idea that just because I or anyone else doesn’t like Morrison’s Batman that we are neither intelligent or a competent reader are just rediculous. As I read through the comments to my "review" I saw that a lot of people commented that I am being critical of his work. As I recall all that I said was that I, me, myself, have not enjoyed his run, and so Morrison enthusiasts are free to think what the may. I believe that my words are being taken way to seriously here, I was not trying to say that I could not follow the story, its just that the story wasn’t for me nor the story telling. Everyone has their own idea of who the favorite character is, and so when you are faced with a contradiction to you long held beliefs its sometimes hard to swallow. 

    I’m not gonna spout the same art and literature are subjective thing because its already been said and I think it should go without saying. However what I will say is that I am not afraid to express my opinion and I will defend it as well, but I have to say you sure know how to make a guy feel welcome, I mean this was my first week on here, and I’m already being considered a stupid child.

  36. Avatar photo Hawkeye says:
    December 8, 2008 at 11:49 pm

    I’m sorry, but in my opinion Grant Morrison is not the end all, be all of comic book writers.

  37. Avatar photo JumpingJupiter says:
    December 10, 2008 at 12:13 am

    Good job.

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