AVENGERS VS. X-MEN #12

• Extra-sized final issue!

• It’s all come down to this!

• The final battle-as the world burns!

Story by Jason Aaron
Art by Adam Kubert
Cover by Jim Cheung

Price: $4.99
iFanboy Community Pick of the Week Percentage: 2.8%

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Comments

  1. We would be getting Uncanny Avengers 1 now if this wasn’t late grrr

  2. What is “extra-sized” these days? 26 pages?

  3. Thank goodness this is over. This event should have been 8 issues at the most. Let’s hope there isn’t a marvel event for a couple of years, we need time to let these Marvel Now books breath, lest they scare away all the “new readers” they hope to bring in.

    • Odds are low. The events bring in the bucks, and the bucks keep the lights on.

    • I’m sure they could keep the lights on without “event bucks”, but that said I don’t expect them to let any potential bucks go. It’d be a better product that’s for sure.

    • @PsychoJudgeDredd: While I’d like to believe they can make money without line-wide events, they more or less tried that back in 2009 and sales were weakened on most titles.

      That said, I think Marvel is honing in on the best way to handle these big events.

      Some fans are gonna bitch about events no matter what, and I’ll agree that AVX maybe should have been a little shorter, but I think Marvel has done a good job keeping AVX tie-ins and ancillary mini-series to a minimum. I didn’t pick up any books I wasn’t already reading, but the tie-in stories in Wolverine and The X-Men and X-Men Legacy were pretty strong.

      Has anyone seen a final count on the number of AVX tie-ins? I feel like it’s gotta be a little lower than other recent Marvel events (then again, double shipping may have negated that).

    • For me, the various X titles being so tied in AvX weakened them considerably. Plus I don’t read them all week to week, so though I do read AvX when it’s new, so when catching up on them it’s especially odd.

    • I agree that the Wolverine and the X-men tie-ins were pretty strong compared to others, but it still lost something on the way. It was still relatively new when AvX started, so it didn’t really get a chance to breath a little before this event which makes up about half of Wolverine and the X-men’s run. Also, Secret Avengers took a major hit during the tie-in periods, to the point where I didn’t read the last two tie-in issues because it was that bad. At least in the case of Secret Avengers it was only for a short period until we got back the regular series. Nevertheless, this event was relatively average, but the tie-ins were a bit much for such a big event, which seemed long winded to begin with.

  4. I, for one, have really enjoyed this event. I’m looking forward to seeing how it ends.

    • seconded, this has been really enjoyable in my opinion and everything i wanted from a summer event

    • I’ve been enjoying it too, for the most part. Gotta say though, they REALLY disappointed me in this issue. They did NOT stick the landing. This was terrible, with huge gaping logic holes that just make no sense.

      I was excited for Marvel Now, but after reading the conclusion, I find I don’t care at all.

  5. Not currently reading anything from Marvel, so I hope I get a bunch of spoilers on this before I checkout some of the Marvel Now titles.

  6. 5 dollars?! What the hell. As if Marvel didn’t overcharge already.

    • Ask your LCS if you can take a look at their invoice, see what they pay for this from Diamond, then think of what Diamond gets for being the distributor. Marvel isn’t getting five bucks out of you. I’d wager, depending on volume, your store paid ~$2.30. No clue what Diamonds cut is though.

    • I buy digitally so…its still a lot of money.

    • @Firevine – I understand that many people in the supply chain share the money, but Marvel sets the sticker price. I’m not sure what your comment meant relative to the point that for many comic buyers 4.99 (plus tax in many locations) feels like a lot of money for a single issue.

  7. Glad this is over. It wasn’t horrible to me…just unevenly paced, overly long and a contrived fight between Avengers and X-Men. But it did have some stellar art in some issues and was entertaining in certain ways. That said, it’s gone on long enough and it’s time to move on.

  8. I will miss the art in this series very much. The story line started off strong, not to say I dislike it now, but I sort of ended up always furrowing my brow in at least one panel in each issue.

  9. I thought that the main reason that Scott wanted the Phoenix Force was that he believed that the power of the Phoenix Force will save the mutants.

    He was going to use the Phoenix force to restore all the mutants that were de-powered during the whole House of M series.

    However, all we got was 12 issues of Scott and the other Phoenixes fighting the Avengers…

    I mean if Scott were to restore ‘his people’ that would be a noble cause. There were no motivation, purpose, nor direction in this entire series… just a big play ground fight.

    • Well they didn’t get Phoenix-powered until the last page of issue #5, so technically it was 6 issues of Phoenixes fighting Avengers. As to the “big play ground fight” comment, I must ask: what did you expect from a series called Avengers vs. X-Men?

  10. Loved this series! The art was great. The writing was pretty decent. Almost hate to see it end.

  11. will this issue explain how spider-man still has a face after the colossopunch from issue #9?

  12. PymSlap PymSlap (@alaska_nebraska) says:

    That’s pretty shitty to raise the price for the conclusion. That’s like the business model of a scumbag drug dealer. I feel pretty bad about seeing Scott Summers commit such horrible attacks on those he was so close to. I’m dying to see how Jason Aaron caps this off. I doubt anyone will be reveling in their victory. It’s so dark that not even Spider-Man can quip because he’s got a broken face.

  13. Haven’t read an issue of this but have the hardcover preordered because I locked in the price at a 50% discount. I never expected a masterpiece from this, but I hope that the ending is strong. I’ve been following reviews… which have been decidedly mixed. Hopefully the finale is a fun time, at least.

    About the pricing/size: I heard that a random issue halfway through the series (one written by Hickman, I think) was double-sized as well, for no extra cost, and Marvel didn’t even advertise that. Marvel’s pricing on everything (singles, trades) is so wonky these days and nothing makes sense. The first hardcover of Uncanny Avengers is going to be $25 for four issues.

    • Where did you order from to get 50% discount? That’s a good deal.

    • @MaterDestructo: Amazon has gotten into the habit of offering bigger discounts for some early pre-orders. I think AVX was one of them.

    • Yep, it was at Amazon. (Okay, it was actually 48% or 49% off, but still…) At the moment the Amazon discount is significantly less. It is basically a guiltless crime to preorder something early on Amazon and then cancel it if you don’t want it. It locks in the earlier pricing, which is often the best discount they’ll ever give you. I preordered the AvX hardcover as soon as Amazon had it up, always with the idea that I could just cancel the order if the reviews were atrocious.

      But, I’m looking forward to getting the big hardcover and reading this whole thing. I haven’t read a big (somewhat)dumb event book in a while.

    • Pre-Ordering Omnibusses is the way to go. I wish I had done it for New X-Men. Got X-Statix for about $60 bucks though!

    • You should try InStockTrades.com, Right now you can get the New X-Men Omnibus for $68.75.

      I haven’t picked anything up from them yet myself, but damn that’s a good deal.

    • Sweet.

  14. I got to say that while reading this event, I liked captian america less and less in this. To me, he was a dick. I know scott mess up in the end, but I feel that cap kind of pushed him to be like that.

    • Agree 100% Could’ve boiled it down to a writer not getting the character but we had 4 writers on it including the writer who had kick started cap back into an ongoing run that was cherished

    • “… you two are fighting each other?! this is not how avengers behave!” cap also has a pretty short memory.

    • What are you guys noobs? There is one rule in the Marvel Universe: Steve Rogers is always right. 🙂

      Seriously though, I think the Phoenix pushed him far more than Steve did. Rogers typically errors on trusting people too much when he shouldn’t, so I trust his judgement on this one.

    • BTW I know he’s not a real person… That comment I just posted sounds as if I grab coffee with him everyday lol

  15. This was very hard to read and for the first time as a comic reader, I felt insulted. Price was WAY too high for the content inside. Between that and the way Scott’s treated at the end is infuriating. I had hogh hopes for this event, but it just crumpled under its own weight.

    • Well said

    • I feel the same way. All the Avengers walk away holding hands, and Rogers has the balls to lecture Scott on what a fine man Xavier was. And Magneto is walking around in a wizard hood to stay out of site….why? He’d been fighting the Phoenix earlier than most of the other X-Men, and was the one who brought Chuck into the fight…Oh what’s the use in starting to poke holes in the logic. The editors didn’t care if they got these characters right…why should I?

  16. Wait… so the phoenix force restored the mutant population…

    But is that correct?

    I thought the the classical definition was that a mutant was born with a mutation that give them powers, but all the phoenix force did was dumped power into a bunch of normal unsuspecting people.

    Does that technically made these people mutants? If that was the case then the Fantastic Four and most of the Marvel universe are mutants too…

    • Maybe the powers were restored to people who lost them during House of M? I have a feeling this will be brought up/answered in AvX: Consequences, but I don’t really have any interest in that mini…

  17. To be honest I really think this was just some excuse to shine more light into the Avengers. Yes they smashed sales with the Avengers movie but I would give credit to Favreau and whoever was in charge of the Marvel movie department at that time for making 5 films that connected together to create 1 blockbuster movie. Anyway as I was saying the Marvel readers have recently been trending back towards the X-Men again thanks to higher sales of Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine and the X-Men and Uncanny X-Force. These books have been beating the Avengers titles due to having fresh new writers unlike the Avengers which had its flagship title and sister title (New Avengers) being written by the same writer with the same characters. Of course Marvel not having the rights to the X-Men franchise means Avengers gets the bigger push hence the mash-up of Uncanny Avengers. Wtvr. I for one love Hickmans writing and hope he doesn’t shoe horn Cap’s almightyness down our throats. The Avengers now seems like a dictatorship. I liked the movie Avengers who worked as a team. I don’t even remember the Justice League having a dictator and that’s what I love about it. They agree or disagree. Lately all I see is Yes Cap. Sir Yes Sir! And please Mr. Hickman I’ve had enough of Wolverine. Heres hoping All-New X-Men delivers.

  18. Well this was frustrating. After instigating a fight with the X-Men because they didnt’ want Hope to get the Phoenix and thereby splitting the Phoenix powers to the unprepared Phoenix Five, the Avengers grand plan is to…let Hope get the Phoenix. WHAT??? How has no one pointed out the obvious…if Cap just left things alone, Hope would have gotten the Phoenix, kickstarted the mutant population, then given up the Phoenix without any of the fighting. But then…we would have missed out on 12 issues of nonsensical fighting. Ok I concede the $$$…well played Marvel.

    • Yup.

    • Yeah, Tony “I have Faith Now” Stark started this whole mess, gets a pat on the back and a pass, and the “hated and feared” X-Men are in chains and on the run.

      Besides being insulting, what do you think Marvel is trying to say about their alegory for racism and homophobia that they put the only poster boy for mutant rights in chains?

    • With the Aryan Uberman standing over him yelling into his face with doubletalk. It really is a lot like the end of 1984. Helmet on Cyclops and everything!

    • jesus, you are kidding yourself if you think the X-men represent anything anymore, other than the x-men.

      There is no allegory with them any more because their story has been taken to its logical conclusion: A spiraling militarized arms race between them and the people who hate and fear them. There is no longer any kind of relatable relationship between them and the downtrodden minorities of the real world.

      In addition, Prof Xavier was always the representative of the mutant rights struggle, what does it say about Marvel that they killed him? Nothing, because the allegorical link can no longer be drawn between fiction and reality.

  19. Cap’s lines about the ends don’t justify the means really bothers me. Cyclops was right, what he predicted the Phoenix would do happened…the things he and the others did after becoming the Phoenix Five wouldn’t have happened if not for Cap’s aggression. It wasn’t Scott’s plan to take the Phoenix force, he meant it for Hope. He had it forced upon him after the Avengers actions. All of this would have been avoided if Cap hadnt shown up to Utopia with an army and insisted on taking Hope while not even hearing Scott out.

    • Yep this was exactly my thought. Pretty annoying.

    • Yeah I see that we were basically saying the same thing at the same time. It’s just frustrating cause I know Jason Aaron and the other writers are better than this and would realize all of this too. I kept waiting as that last scene played out for Cyclops to give it to Captain America and Wolverine but he didn’t and that’s so frustrating.

    • I totally understand that the whole “if Cap had just let it happen everything would have worked out fine” thing is frustrating. I agree, especially if AVX is your first, only and last experience with the characters.

      But knowing that the repercussions of this story will have later effects is very interesting to me. Cap made the best call he could with the evidence he had at the time, but the fact will remain that it was the WRONG call. And Cyclops — despite all the horrible things that he did as Dark Phoenix — was right. He’s not in his right mind (check out Uncanny 19 if you don’t believe me), but he was right.

      Avengers versus X-Men. Winner: X-Men.

      Hindsight is 20/20, so you could certainly argue that Hope had to witness it all go wrong for Scott and the others in order to have the experience or maturity to really handle the Phoenix like she did. We’ll never know.

      But the fact that that “What If Cap had laid back and let the Phoenix take Hope in the first place?” question is going to be on all these character’s minds as they go forward has me really excited for the future storylines.

      After meeting both Jason Aaron and Jonathan Hickman at Morrisoncon last weekend, I think the A and X franchises are in good hands.

    • Cap is receiving a lot of critisim over how he handled this entire fiasco, most justifiably deserved, but what about the other side?

      Scott Summers was intimately familiar with the Phoenix force. He witnessed its destructive powers and corrupted one of the strongest-willed person that he knew and loved. Yet, despite the past experiences, Scott somehow believed that the Phoenix force coming this time is somehow a good thing?

      It’s kinda like witnessing an F-5 tornado that completely leveled and destroyed your house… then you see another F-5 tornado heading your way… and you decided that this tornado will somehow re-build your house?

    • @loki2486: That’s exactly what I find fascinating about this — Cap was wrong and Cyclops was right, but kind of crazy. Two of the best tacticians among the super-hero community screwed up big time in one way or another.

      I think this is achieving exactly what Marvel has been promising for a while — bringing the X-Men into the Marvel Universe in a bigger way. Had Cap and the Avengers given the mutants the benefit of the doubt, it’s possible that everything would have worked out fine. That should be a wake-up call to both groups, showing them that they need to work together to keep this kind of thing from happening in the future. Especially now that new mutants are developing.

      So I think it’s interesting that “the ends justify the means” is a theme in the story, because that’s how I’m looking at this series right now as a reader — the means ranged from “kind of alright” to “pretty darn good”, but the ends… the ends are looking awesome.

    • I really hope that some of the follow up material addresses the fact that this whole fiasco was, essentially, Captain America’s fault.

    • I was under the impression that if Hope inherted the Phoenix from the beginning, it would’ve corrupted her. The evil-ness was seeping through in this issue when she starts referring to herself as the white phoenix. When the comic flashes back 71 hours, Cap and Hope basically have a conversation about this.

      Yin and Yang. If Scarlet Witch was not present and Hope was not willing to let the phoenix force go (because she’s the only one with the ability to do so) then it would’ve gone down the same destructive path it did with Jean, Cyclops, and the other four.

      Cap was right all along, Hope needed proper training to understand the true weight of the situation. You dont just get cool fire powers and stay as your normal self.

    • @smo5000: That’s a good point (about Scarlet Witch’s involvement in purging the Phoenix). I guess it’s another “What if?” question these characters are going to have to deal with moving forward.

    • So Cap was right because, through all this mess, a Kung Fu wizard in a Cobra Commander hood told Hope to listen to Spider-Man say “with great power comes great responsibility”?

      I’m not feeling it. If this was such an important point, they did a poor job selling it.

  20. Also, I thought it was supposed to be such a big deal that there was no such thing as chaos magic?

    And speaking of Avengers Disassembled, I think an alternate title to this series would be X-Men Disassembled. There’s a big break up of the team from a cosmic force and the team is broken apart and Bendis will be writing.

  21. It blows my mind that this comic only has about a dozen more pulls than Animal Man and may not crack 800. There was a time a few years ago when every Big Two event book would smash past 1000 pulls easily. And several New 52 titles have been over 1000. It’s weird that Marvel has declined so much. I wonder if the Marvel Now titles will raise the ceiling for the number of pulls that a Marvel book can register. (I mean the pulls on this site, of course. In overall sales figures AvX has been #1 and #2 on the charts every month, except when Walking Dead 100 came out.)

    • I’m actually sad that it has that many pulls. I thought more people would be tired of Marvel’s overpriced crap by now.

      I gave them a second/third chance at the start of this series, but it and it’s tie-ins turned me off completely to Marvel – I sure as hell will not be buying any of their 3.99 books ever again and probably won’t be getting anything they do that’s 2.99, either.

    • Keep in mind iFanboy is a small sample size of the comic book buying public.
      Granted it’s an Elite Group of the comic book buying public but not indicative of the entire market.

    • ifanboy users: An elite unit of crack comic book readers, hiding out in the internet underground. If you need comic book help and if you can find them, maybe you can call the iFanboy Users!

  22. I can’t believe it was all a dream!!!!!!

  23. This ending was great Cyclops came off looking like a dick more then ever, thats everything i could have asked for from this event

    • Man, if anything, Cap and his racist flatscan friends come off looking like the dopes! Cyclops was right all along! If Iron Man hadn’t split up the Phoenix, none of this would have happened! Hope would’ve had everything on lockdown!

    • na i agree with that but the fact that hes the one sitting there in cuffs at the end making comments about sacrifices always having to be made and then Wolverine showing up to show off the fact that hes making an eulogy at the professors funeral made it all the better. Still somehow he comes off like the dick in that situation haha

    • Yeah, Cyclops, despite being completely in the wrong still tries to make it seem like everything is great and its thanks to him. Get lost, with your psudo-sage bs. You lost, it was your fault, now you can sit out the rest of the marvel universe.

      …Gosh, I didn’t realise I felt so strongly about how much of a dick Cyclops is.

    • So Cyclops did what he did because he used this devastating cosmic Phoenix Force to caused the Re-emergence of the mutants… how is that different from what Kevin Beacon er… Shaw’s motives in the X-Men First Class movie? Shaw tried to created more mutants, but attempted to use a much less dangerous weapon… nuclear bombs.

      And… When Hope became the White Phoenix and went around the world repairing everything… Why can’t she restore Professor X?

  24. That was just …. Weak. Might be the end of me and Marvel. Certainly won’t be buying any “epilogue” type crap.

  25. Personally, an amazing issue. Some flashback panels were pretty meh, but overall great artwork and a great ending to the event.

  26. I was pretty disappointed in issue #12. For someone who doesn’t like Marvel’s current comic offerings, I tried AvX and thought it was decent enough. Better than the stuff that got me to drop Marvel in the first place, anyway. That said, I thought the series went out with a whimper. They put the final nail in the coffin of Cyclops’ ruined character and Jean Grey didn’t return. Yes, I wanted Jean to come back. Marvel NOW doesn’t excite me, so I think they’ve blown their shot at getting my money again.

    • You mean the small town that is the state capitol of the most populace in the union?

    • Take a stroll through Sac some day…it doesn’t feel like that. It’s just a town, that Schwartzennager sometimes used to visit. I smiled when I saw that panel too.

    • Yeah, Sacramento has a small town vibe about for sure – so to see it placed after the likes of Paris, Sydney, and Beijing made me chuckle.

  27. So did anyone figure out why Iron Man was on the cover yet?

  28. Captain America: Huge Toolbag. Should be he new Marvel NOW! series.

  29. Great last issue of an otherwise mediocre series. One thing that really bothers me though:

    -Wanda goes crazy, kills a bunch of avengers, changes the whole of reality, then de-mutates most of the mutants (causing some of them to die). Gets a slap on the wrist, and some harsh words from her ex-husband.

    -Cyclops gets possessed by a cosmic entity known to turn people evil, yet still manages to make the world a better place for a little while before it consumes him, he then kills his own mentor and causes some natural disasters around the world (it’s never revealed if anyone died from that). He gets put in prison (even though the Phoenix has left him) and some really condescending speeches from Captain America, like he’s the scum of the earth now.

    Sounds fair…

    • How ’bout:

      -Hank Pym invents Ultron, insane robot bent on destroying humanity. Beats his wife. Avenger in good standing.
      -Iron Man helps invent a clone of Thor who destroys an embassy and kills a hero. AND jettisons the Hulk into space. Avenger in good standing.
      -Vision takes over all the world’s computers and attempts to control the world. Avenger in good standing.

      Scott Summers – Most prominent civil rights leader for mutantkind. Cover his eyes and bury him in jail.

      Only the Avengers get a pass when they fuck up. “Avengers Look After Their Own” they say time and again. Sounds like “get out of jail” free cards for the good old boys network.

    • Kind of sick of the B-Lister being overawed at being asked to be an Avenger moment.

      Marvel goes to that well every 3 issues now.

      EVERYONE is an Avenger, if they are just asking you NOW you should feel pretty insulted. Also everyone knows the biggest most powerful, omnipresent, coporatized, Government Sponsored thing is ALWAYS TEH COOLEST.

      There should be more people rejecting being Avengers.

    • Wasn’t Nova an Avenger in Secret Avengers # 2 or something? Or is this a new Nova and I missed it.

    • It’s a new Nova but you didn’t miss anything, they forgot to include him in anything but the first issue and the Infinite Comics issue. It’s just shoddy storytelling.

  30. Could have been worse. It could have been Superman singing.

  31. This ending was telegraphed from the start, but god damn am I glad the M Day effect is over with. I’ve been waiting so long for that.

  32. After reading this event I have to say it was awful. Too drawn out. Logic gaps. Brutal ending. They are hoping to get new readers. I for one will not be one. The best thing about the marvel now relaunch is that I can drop several titles. As a Marvel guy for 27 years I have to admit been holding on hoping its gets better. Couple of core titles with good creators is all. Pull list goes from 40+ marvel titles to 4. At least ill have more $ for creator own comics they are the way to go marvel now for me is marvel NO.

  33. This series was fun, I don’t see any serious issues with it. Sure Cyclops was right, but he went about it the wrong way.

    He was so deranged and sure of his own opinion, that he tried to advance a process which was way beyond his control. Sure Cap was a bit heavy handed, but when you see the guy who’s life was ruined by the world destroying Phoenix, trying to tell you it is the ONE thing that can save his race and make the world a better place (and, oh yeah, totally validate his opinion), I think a bit of heavy handedness is in order.

    Ultimately, if you paid attention to the story, you would know the only way to stop the phoenix was through the combined efforts of Wanda and Hope. Fixing the mutant situation was only a by-product of Wanda’s previous breakdown. Even if there were still mutants, it would still have taken Wanda and Hope to dissipate the Phoenix. So even if Cyclops got his way from the start, it would have still ended badly.

    There are some good points being made about Avengers getting a pass for misdeeds. I would say this: They are beloved characters that the company cannot afford to leave by the sidelines forever. They clearly were though interesting enough to keep in the narrative, probably because of their failures. Hank Pym only hit the Wasp once and was immediately and persistently guilty about it. I know that that still makes him a dick, but he is hardly “a wife beater” in the commonly understood sense.

  34. I don’t see how this could have ended any other way, the finale to AvX was more or less a logical one. I hope we get a break from Cyclops and Emma for a while; he is crazy and she became annoying. I’m not sure I understand why Magneto is now a fugitive; he was one of the good guys all along.

    Please check my mini-review of Avengers vs X-Men #12 here:

    http://bit.ly/SOV3Do

    Comments and feedback are always welcome!

  35. Thank god that’s over. not a bad issue but was a bad series. Nobody wins.

  36. I think that marvel guessed that the issue was going to sell big anyway so they upped the price just to get more money. Marketing is like that; cold, cynical and without class.

    And I’m sure in a few issues everything will be forgotten. Not a lot of long memories at marvel.

    • The issue had extra pages, so while I don’t like paying more than I have to for my comics, I can see why the price was higher than usual.

      And to your comment on memory, this event is built directly on the events of Messiah Complex (5 years ago) and House of M (7 years ago). That’s a long time in comics. And if you’re willing to stretch beyond the surface of the plot, a lot of AVX alludes to the events of the Dark Phoenix Saga, which is older than most of us posting on this site!

      Sure, they intentionally overlook certain plot points of the past — but I think that’s something you have to do to continue telling new stories with these characters that are 30, 40, 50 or more years old.

      Can anyone name fictional constructs outside of comics that have been used in as many stories?

      It’s amazing to me the hoops creators at Marvel have to go through to continue telling stories in more or less the same timeline as all the other stories and have it make ANY amount of sense. The fact that they can do it as well as they do, as often as they do, without entirely alienating someone who hasn’t read EVERYTHING, is astonishing.

    • Yes but they left out a lot of Phoenix stuff that has been around since before Wanda went crazy. In the end I guess I’m just not happy that almost every big event like this that marvel has seems to feature at least one hero going villain. House of M had Wanda, cw had Tony and Carol, this has Cyclops and I won’t even mention the fact that Magick tortured the Avengers. I don’t know who the heroes are in the mu anymore and it doesn’t seem to matter as they’ll be turned into villains in the next big event. It’s like the writers flip a coin to see who becomes the bad guy.

    • @Mark_S: You’ve got a lot of fair points there. I think what I appreciate about it, is that when these heroes “go villain” they do so behind a strong personal conviction (the possessions of the Worthy in Fear Itself being a glaring exception).

      Wanda in House of M…I’ll give you that one. As far as I know, she just went nuts.

      But in the context of Civil War, Tony and Carol really believed that registration was the right way to go after Stamford. It’s arguable whether that’s in character for them, but given the long histories of both characters, I can go with it in order to get an interesting story.

      Cyclops is a slightly different case, because while he totally believed in what he was doing, he pulled some truly heinous crap as Dark Phoenix. The jury is still out on this one.

      And Magik has struggled with the Darkchilde thing since the mid-80s, so I really wasn’t surprised to see the Phoenix bring her more demonic side to the forefront.

      So I’ll agree that this is kind of a trend in Marvel events, but I guess I characterize it more as “good guy makes a really bad decision for reasons they’re passionate about” rather than “good guy becomes a bad guy”. It may still be an arbitrary choice by the writers, but I feel like they’ve done a decent job justifying that choice through the stories.

    • I could see Tony’s actions in cw up until Clor. Once you start cloning dead friends and sending them out to intimidate and/or kill current friends you really cross the line. Carol’s a bit different, once when her secret ID was on the line she threatened to break a federal agents wrist, but when it was someone else she had no trouble beating up a woman in front of her daughter. She also scolded the Shroud about all of the SHIELD agents he and Julia put in the hospital but had no trouble doing the same to HAMMER agents later. In both cases federal law enforcement officials. Hypocrite is the word I’d use for her. In the context of the story I can see the people she hunted down thinking that she was so vicious and merciless about it because after it was all over she wanted the top spot on Tony’s Avengers team. I just can’t see her as a heroine after her actions. Nor Tony for that matter. She-Hulk herself called Tony Dr. Doom and his treatment of her is about as un-heroic as you can get.

      My problem is that after these events things are quickly forgotten, or more to the point that they are forgotten at all. Tony stood up infront of a press conference with a list of superheroes who’s identity he had deduced and vowed to bring them all in. How does anyone trust Tony after that? Things that should last, don’t last and are often glossed over. Actions that should generate anger and hated for years or even forever are forgotten after a quick adventure or two. Betrayal of friendship and trust are so common as to be yawn worthy upon. In my opinion the marvel writers decide with a flip of a coin who’s a villain and who’s a hero. Cyclops was the bad guy in AvX, give it a year and Tony will be back to being the bad guy. I’ll glance at the titles and I’ll read the reviews like the ones above but I just can’t accept that anyone in marvel is hero/heroine. Because even if they are today they won’t be tomorrow.

  37. AvX has been a bit of fun but could someone explain to a newer Marvel reader why Scarlet Witch doesnt use these powers to end other conflicts or problems in the world if she can say “no more mutants” or “no more phoenix” why not “no more war”? or even “no more Deadpool?” Thanks this has been bugging me all day

    • I’m not a Scarlet Witch expert, but I have some theories.

      First, there’s the practical, off-the-page explanation that her powers would be an easy Deus Ex Machina if overused. But within the Marvel Universe, I think the idea is that Scarlet Witch’s powers are unpredictable when used on a large scale, so she generally avoids exploring the upper limits of her capabilities unless there’s no other choice. “No More Mutants” was the result of some serious psychological trauma, and “No More Phoenix” was the only solution to the problem (or the whole reason for “chaos magic” existing in the first place? I’m not 100% sure).

    • filippod filippod (@filippodee) says:

      Yes, they did offer more product for more money but I still feel that Marvel is deliberating forcing their fans to buy more product to stay afloat in the #1 race with DC. There can’t be a narrative reason in a 12 issue mini to have an oversized last issue. I’m convinced this is a cold deliberate way to get 180,000 guaranteed bucks in “market share” value.

    • @filippod: I totally agree that AVX had some pacing issues, and we’re of course both speculating, but I think you maybe give Marvel too much credit when you believe it’s a cold, deliberate move.

      But I appreciate that we can disagree about this in a respectful, mature manner!

      (btw, you previously responded to someone impersonating me with a knockoff profile. The posts are all gone per the TOS, so I wanted to make sure you knew there was absolutely no ill will!)

    • filippod filippod (@filippodee) says:

      @KenOchalek: yes, I saw your reply to the impersonator before it was removed. Thanks!

  38. Well one thing is for sure, at least based on what I’ve read here and on other boards holds, if marvel wanted to set the X-men and the Avengers fans against each other it worked.

  39. Well I finally read this and found the conclusion befuddling to say the least. On the very first page they describe the Phoenix and Wanda’s magic as a Yin and Yang, a force of change and a cycle in the universe. The existence of one precludes the other. In a Yin and Yang scenario, both are necessary. In the end, the Phoenix just goes away, but Wanda doesn’t give away her powers, which means ultimately things will only get worse and the chaos magic eventually destroys everything. Just my crazy brain thinking this silly but sometimes fun story.

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