Allergic to Fun: Comics’ War on Children

"We are grown-ups!"

“We are grown-ups!”

All of a sudden, my five year old has started reacting to Sesame Street the way my conservative father reacts to The Rachel Maddow Show. A few weeks ago, after a couple years of never watching an episode less than fourteen times (did you know that when I was a kid, they did 130 fresh episodes a season? Did you know that now they do twenty-five and pitilessly, mercilessly rerun them for a year? Would you like me to recite one in its entirety?) I turned the show on and she was so repelled by it she refused to stay in the room while it was on the screen.

“I don’t want to watch Sesame Street,” she said from the kitchen with her back turned. “I don’t watch that show anymore. I want to watch a big kid show.”

I resisted my compulsion to shout, “Yeah, I want to watch a big kid show, too; your mother and I are two seasons behind on Mad Men because someone insists that we sit through the same episode of Dora the Explorer every night of our lives,” and spent that time more constructively getting to the bottom of this newfound aversion to Muppet-based education. As it turned out, the girl had recently shared a recess with some “school-agers” who made fun of another little guy for liking the show. Sesame Street, said the cool, hipster six year-olds, was “too babyish.”

That was all it took. Just like that, Elmo was persona non grata. (Little did she know!) She would not be caught dead within a hundred yards of Hooper’s Store now, even when the only other person in the room approaching a peer was her two-year-old, barely-English-speaking brother. There is nothing worse than being perceived as immature, especially to immature people.

Many, many times in my life–specifically the parts of it that were 1986 adjacent–I’ve had someone say to me, “People think comic books are just for kids, but they’re not, you know. They’re full of mature themes and adult situations and swears.” As I’ve said before, when I look back at the people who have said that to me over the years, it occurs to me that almost all of them were eleven years old. I realize now that comics were in fact growing up at that peculiar moment in history, but that was incidental. The kids around the comic shop were not so much interested in comics gaining legitimacy as they were in getting credibility themselves. My generation had an epiphany: if you want to be perceived as an adult, you can act the way adults act and do the things adults do, or you can keep on doing the same stuff you’ve been doing since you were nine but wage a PR campaign until that stuff is declared adult behavior. The fruits of our campaign are all around you.

I suspect this is why comics are now as serious as a stroke during an audit. Nothing’ll get your book to wallow in the low-middle of the charts like being labeled “fun.” Ooh, we do not like the look of fun. This thing we fill our heads with is an art form, we will have you know, Serious Business. We are not frivolous people. Batman villains rip their own faces off and make us watch them rot as they torture our friends to death; let’s see Burt Ward pun his way out of that. Howard the Duck has been shunted off to the Marvel Zombies universe; sure he’s written completely out of character, but around here the only acceptable use of funny talking animals is putting them hip-deep in festering entrails. You call that babyish?

And kids? Fuck shit ass balls no, comics aren’t for kids, bitch. Here’s what comics think of kids:

Damian dead

We stab ten-year-olds to death around here, son. We stab ’em and we splash it up nice and big. If they live past ten, it’s off to Avengers Arena, where they hack at each other until we can pile ’em up like cordwood. “BIF! BAM! POW!”

Speedball sure was goofy, huh? Yeah? Speedball is a cutter. Who’s stupid now, Dad?

You should see the comments we have to delete around here when the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon gets mentioned. People are angry at that show for being a goofy cartoon made for kids. I wrote a thing when it came out saying that “not everything is made for you,” and people came at me. I think the closest thing to agreement I saw was the comment, “duh, dur.” That column was nearly a year ago, and people still bring it up with flecks of foam in the corners of their mouths.

This is the reason I hope people are right when they say that the nerds have taken over and geek culture has become mainstream culture. Hopefully, once it becomes clear that nobody has anything to prove anymore, the defensive generation will be replaced by one that sees superhero stories as stories. It would be nice to see someone say, “Comics are mature and serious, you know,” and have the person he’s talking to nonchalantly respond, “Yeah, I know. Sometimes.”

 


Jim Mroczkowski  would love to see what would happen in the media if someone on a TV show plunged a sword through a fifth grader’s chest. That’s entertainment!

Comments

  1. Oh Jim, you know my heart!

  2. I’m not a huge fan of Ultimate Spider-Man. So I don’t watch it, problem solved.

    Also… Super Dinosaur.

  3. brilliant. for real.

    there’s little fun in comics today. isn’t there a little bit of room for some lightheartedness amongst all this serious business? does every story have to end with a death to be compelling?

    believe it or not kids, we can tell a serious story, that has a little bit…just a touch…of fun/humor in it. it’s possible! i’m sure i’ve seen it somewhere…

  4. Wonderful, wonderful article. Someone should Martin Luther it onto the door of DC’s offices. Best line:

    “My generation had an epiphany: if you want to be perceived as an adult, you can act the way adults act and do the things adults do, or you can keep on doing the same stuff you’ve been doing since you were nine but wage a PR campaign until that stuff is declared adult behavior. The fruits of our campaign are all around you.”

    followed closely by:

    “Speedball is a cutter. Who’s stupid now, Dad?”

    I guess money is going to be the deciding factor here, but I really hope readers, retailers, creators, and publishers start to take note of sentiments like this one.

  5. I got to agree with Jim. Unfortunately today, Writers & Editors believe Comics need to be violently graphic. They don’t. Give the fans a great story and such violence is not needed.

  6. I don’t think people hate “Ultimate Spider-Man” because it’s for kids, it’s probably because it SUCKS. I get it, it’s Disney and Spider-man, it’s made to make money, and it’s got big names behind it, I still say it sucks. I’m not a kid anymore, but when I watch the same cartoons I did when I was 8-10, I still enjoy them. They weren’t written poorly, IMO they hold up today just fine. That said I wondered why it seemed more people were commenting on “Green Lantern” and “Young Justice” but not “USM” (I assumed people didnt care).

    The comics thing, it seems alittle overblown. There’s not 3 different spider-man comics kids 6-8 can read? Then there’s the comics made SPECIFICALLY for kids based on the cartoons marketed towards them. People still say comics are for kids (my family tells me this occasionally as well), so maybe theyre not entirely legitimate yet. Comics use more violence and sex to appeal to teens/young adults because that’s the base they have right now. We could go into “oh, we need more comics for KIDS!”, or “We need to put comics in 7-11s on spinet racks” or even “we need new readers” but it’s all the same stuff as before that we’ve talked to death. Maybe comics today could tone down the gore and sex, and could try to make room for younger readers. Maybe comics are trying to compete with movies/tv shows/ and music in terms of mature content. In my experience, kids today don’t stay kids for long. Once they meet other kids in school, its less about “Power Rangers” and candy and more about fighting,drugs, and getting laid (and that’s just Middle School). Maybe it’s the culture we live in, instead of comics that needs to change.

    • When I’ve watched Ultimate Spider-Man, I thought the jokes on it were totally perfect for my nephew who is 10 and my niece who is 8. So I think your hate for it has nothing to do with it “sucking” and everything to do with IT’S NOT FOR YOU.

    • That’s original, how long that’d take you to come up with? You neglected to mention if your niece and nephew actually like the show. It absolutely sucks, the jokes are terrible. The only thing I can actually enjoy about it is Danny Rand’s fortune cookie lessons of wisdom and Drake Bell’s voice casting. I may poke fun at “Batman:Brave and the Bold” and “Spectacular Spider-Man” but those shows are miles above “USM”. Some episodes weren’t half bad, but I didn’t stick with it to see if was gonna get better. But we can just wait an see if kids today even remember it when it’s canceled and theyre older. Or even ask them if they like it right now (backed with empirical evidence).

    • Fact: I don’t like USM.

      Fact: my little cousins love it. Wake up and watch it religiously, reruns or not.

      Fact: They love to tell me all about it and how they ‘play’ it at recess with their friends. I’m just happy they fight over who gets to be Iron Fist. Iron Fist is the shit.

  7. Well said Jimski. This is well trodden territory but I think you’ve articulated something interesting here. I remember turning 13 or so and suddenly the only comics I felt that I could admit to reading were Spawn and Venom. I had to prove that my hobby wasn’t for babys even though I was hardly an adult.

  8. This article made my birthday! I would love to see at the very least more humor in comics. I loved things like NExtWave AGENTS of HATE, and Scott pilgrim and ….Groo, we near more funny. Recomendations?

    • I was thinking of NextWave as well as an excellent example of fun comics 🙂
      On the other hand, check out CHEW, it is awesome! it has a great sense of humor (pay attention to all the panels!!!) and there hasn’t been a single issue that hasn’t made me at least chuckle (just like NextWave did)
      Enjoy

    • Let me add to the NextWave love-fest. Finally got the second TPB (and now it’s all out in one volume) and will be rereading soon. I’ll also share this with whoever I can because it’s so funny.

      I also like the early Joe Kelly Deadpool – the new series is good too, but I don’t know if either is kid friendly. But “fun” doesn’t have to be 100% kid friendly.

      And the Tick books always get a laugh.

  9. Decent article. Nice job.

    I enjoy fun comics. I absolutely do. I also agree that you have to realize when something “is not for you” and move on.

  10. Well said — I like some of the individual stories mentioned, and I also think it’s worth noting that ‘Avengers Arena’ is explicitly inspired by a dark-theme trend in stories aimed at teenagers, so it’s not just something that has happened in comics. And I think dark/violent/sexual content in comics has its place, just like dark-themed/mature Young Adult fiction does. The frustration is when, as you suggest, anything that has that kind of content is presumed to be better than anything that doesn’t, and even the potential for genuine all-ages content gets crowded out.

    I wonder if your’e daughter’s old enough to watch ‘Avatar: the Last Air Bender’? I know my five-year-old nephew liked that and it’s definitely enjoyable by adults and children.

    • (and it just occured to me ‘Avatar’ also has war and destruction and violence perpetrated by and on children — but, I think, in an ‘adventure stories actually for children’ kind of way?)

    • It definitely has some mature themss, but they don’t overshadow the show. Then again I think I was still a teenager when it came on. I think it’s a great show about growing up and learning about the world tho. “Legend of Korea” is maybe a little more grown up, buts that’s to be expected.

  11. This is really why i love the new Hawkeye run. Its totally fun every issue yet still has tons of other great comic stuff. Its sitting in a great place that only could be pulled off my an expert team like that. When looking at other books that i love right now, an element of fun is super important. Daredevil, Skullkickers, Saga….they all bring light hearted elements to mix it up.

    For the rest of the big comic universe’s seems like ‘fun’ comics are only allowed during Halloween or Christmas one-shots. And i see this spilling over onto creator owned. If its to be taken seriously, it has to have dark, gritty and violent tones as an almost rule.

    I kinda feel like we have tons of great books being published, but they’re all playing in the same relative sandbox with the same dark themes and devices. (everybody dies!)

    • What’s also great is that the comics you’ve listed are fun but still clearly not being pitched to young kids. Image’s mini End Times of Bram and Ben has been tickling my funny bone lately too,

    • Ya hawkeye is brilliant. Truly a piece of art.

    • yeah that’s the key. “All Ages” doesn’t have to mean juvenile. Most of us fell in love with comics cause we read the big Superhero titles back in the day…those were ok for kids and didn’t have any of the dark and gritty themes and constant death and violence we see as a regular thing.

      I think there is a happy medium.

    • Hawkeye is certainly fun, one of my favorite comics right now, but I sure wouldn’t let me five year old read it.

  12. This is where comics seems to differ from most other media. Most publishers seem to really be trying to put out kid friendly stuff (Superman Family, KABOOM, Popeye, etc.), and there’s no shortage of violent, “mature” themed books (usually rated T), but there is little that is truly all-ages. I would be interested to hear what people are buying that they think might be fun for a 12 year old.
    The first two issues of Threshold have been good.

  13. I’m going out on a limb here. Devil’s Advocate. Face the fire.

    Scott Snyder’s “Court of Owls” run in Batman? Totally for kids.

    WITH just a few tweaks here and there (had you there for a moment, right?). And don’t get me wrong. I wouldn’t change a thing about “Court of Owls.” It’s a masterpiece. What I’m saying is that as a 10 year old kid, I watched Spiderman get drugged, grazed by bullets, almost drown in NYC’s water pipes, escape exploding buildings… he didn’t scream in anger too much. He did brood, but not for long…. see a pattern? You could easily convert “Court” into a psuedo-kid accessible book.

    The difference between then and now? A lot of it has to do with the art. No reflection on the great Greg Capullo at all. The art back then was much brighter. Blood was absolutely minimal if shown at all. But then, and here’s Jim’s point: culture and how kids absorbed it was very different back then. Kids today are used to more terrifying stories and images. But Jim is right, (heaven help me). The industry has gone overboard. You don’t have to show a little girl cutting a guy’s head off and watch blood coat the entire room. Sure, that would probably happen in real life, but is it really necessary to the story? Some places yeah, some places no. However, if the industry wants to attract younger readers – besides putting out kid books – they need to realize that they’ve ramped up the violence and adult themes tooo far. They’re mistaken in the belief that they have to be completely over the top to attract readers. Mario and TMNT do just fine in their respective formats without excess gore (both visually and aesthetically).

    My work is done here. Now to read ‘The Walking Dead’… “Wha-? Carl! Nooooooo…!”

  14. Uh Wolverine and the xmen anyone? Ill say the same thing i said to someone last week. SERIOUS is ok and so is GOOFY. I like both. Maybe DC universe stuff has gotten more serious with the new 52.. but i cant be sure of that because i didnt read much DC before the new 52 (apart from batman (always serious) and flash (always lighthearted)). As far as marvel goes and independent comics go they seem just about as serious or silly as they have always been. Do kids read comics much? Regardless.. i have eclectic tastes and i find serious and silly to have equal merit. If you dont like serious dont buy it and if you dont like silly dont buy it. Dont shyte on my fun though and dont pretend that comics arent dismissed because people think “comics are for kids”. How do you propose that we explain to people that reading comics doesnt equal immaturity? I mean watching sports is mature right? Reading mystery and romance novels is mature right? Watching 6 CSI shows is mature right (clearly because of the techno music and neon lights). Most people dont have to defend their interests. We do all the time, so perhaps its not so surprising some of us have a chip on our shoulders. Only 11 year olds say comics arent just for kids? I dont think so, and i dont think that there is anything wrong with pointing the IGNORANT towards a worthwhile book.. whether or not its serious or silly. I dont say here read this its serious; i say here read this its good.

    • WatXM is goofy, but still not exactly kid friendly. Enough graphically violent and sexual references to make this not a kid friendly book.

      When I think “all ages”, I think Pixar. Totally kid appropriate, but hits the right emotional and humorous notes for an adult. You can have something work on multiple levels without being inappropriate for children.

    • I mean the problem is superhero comics involve physically hurting other characters so its kind of difficult to remove violence. Tom and Jerry is more violent than wolverine and the xmen. Did you watch Tom and Jerry as a kid. Road runner and Wile coyote? Sylvester and tweaty? Just about every cartoon being released in theaters has a ton of slapstick violence with zero consequences. Sometimes showing consequences to violence can be safer for kids to watch than the three stooges (how many kids did that show land in the hospital?) I didnt notice a lot of sexual stuff in wolverine and the xmen but im sure its more prominent in comics than it was in 1990. Jason Arron has specifically stated that he wrote wolverine and the xmen partly because he wants his kids to be able to read something of his while they are still kids. Doesnt Shrek have a lot of sexual refrences in it? I get your point about pixar but again vigilantes beat people up, thats what they do. Batman would be killing people every night on accident if the series was truly “serious”. Come to think of it football is kind of violent as well and how many players get badly hurt because of the win at any cost mentality that is pervasive in all sports today (but somehow that is ok?). Comics and video games have been scape goated for years when conversations about violence comes up and yet players get paid to hurt other players in the NFL and nobody really cares.

    • @ilovecomics: I think you are pretty spot on about the slapstick violence prevalent in Loony Toons we all watched growing up. When I think back to the way Road Runner and Wile Coyote beat each other up it is pretty surprising. However, I also think those are very different than reading Batman. Tom and Jerry are mice beating up a cat, Road Runner and Wile Coyote are, well, a road runner and a coyote. Even though they portray violence they do so from one cartoon animal to another. Batman shows one regular human, with no super powers, beating other humans to a pulp, and on some occasions enjoying it. Not to mention the art style in may superhero comics is very realistic, more so in my opinion than in Loony Toons or Merry Melodies. I don’t think its a fair comparison.

      Three Stooges is a perfect example. If that show were on today and marketed as a kids show…well, actually, I can’t imagine that would ever happen today.

      Also, I think the NFL example is a little off. While it’s true that football is violent, it is completely untrue to say: “Yet players get paid to hurt other players in the NFL and nobody really cares.” That just shows a lack of knowledge about the NFL. The NFL has a massive campaign that reaches out to youth league coaches and players at the youngest levels to teach them how to tackle properly. I am not a huge fan of most of what Roger Goodell has done but he has really cleaned up the game in terms of making sure hits are legal and clean. It is an ongoing process to be sure, but compared to the NFL I watched as a kid growing up, today’s NFL is exponentially tamer. Not to mention the NFL spends literally millions of dollars every year to research new protective gear for players. They have passed new rules requiring players to wear additional padding that used to be optional. You might have missed it but several players and coaches were suspended this past season for running a bounty ring. Oh and of course there is the talk of widening the field of play to ensure a safer game and less violent collisions. And by the way, widening the field would completely change almost every single aspect of the game. It will seriously change it in every way. But they are likely to do it because it will make football safer. So when you say “nobody really cares” what exactly are you talking about? If you just don’t like football that’s fine, but educate yourself before you make a comment. Of the four major sports in this country Hockey is by far the most violent. By far. Fighting is not only allowed, it is encouraged.

    • Hmmm Uspunx.. i used the phrase all sports. As in all. I wasnt going to list all the sports. Football is the most recent example in the news. You dont know what my knowledge of football is. I play a lot of pickup sports (all sports except hockey) and im amazed by how cut throat everyone is. Often times its only me that goes easy on weaker players, most people look at people “playing for fun” as fresh meat. People are constantly crossing the line physically and verbally and nobody talks about it. Most people just say thats what sports are, period. They say violence is a part of it and cheating is part of it. Talking about sportsmanship is just lip service in my opinion, it takes a back seat to winning and ego. This is a problem at the core of the male human being and it permeates every level of sports. Please dont make anymore assumptions about me.

      Players were suspended for trying to assault people? is that all, they were suspended? There should be prison time for things like hockey fights and there should be even more prison time for extreme violence that one player hasnt consented to.. like blind siding someone with a hockey stick on purpose. You dont agree? ah you think thats just part of sports do you? Well then maybe you dont really care. And of course kids are sitting in the stand watching this and being coached by men who dont have a problem with it.

    • Whoa whoa whoa! Who is making assumptions now. Where did I say or even imply this: “Like blind siding someone with a hockey stick on purpose. You dont agree? ah you think thats just part of sports do you? Well then maybe you dont really care.” Where? Please quote me as to where I said or even implied this. I completely agree that penalties should be harsher. I think the Saints players and the DC who coached them to injury other players should have faced a lifetime ban. I think the punishment was way too soft. And I won’t even watch hockey because of the very things you mentioned. High sticking in rampant, headhunting still occurs on level that is sickening, and that’s not even to mention the amount of fighting. I don’t watch the sport and I certainly wouldn’t take a kid to a game.

      In regard to the football part, in your previous comment you mentioned the NFL by name. Here is the quote: “Yet players get paid to hurt other players in the NFL and nobody really cares.” If you were talking about your own pickup league maybe you should have said that instead of saying “the NFL.” I played in a club football league after I graduated from college for 4 years and I have to say I had the opposite experience. Occasionally people would cross the line but the vast majority of players and teams were very competitive but cordial and respectful of the rules and of other players. Sounds to me like you just need to find some new people to play with if all this is true: “I’m amazed by how cut throat everyone is. Often times its only me that goes easy on weaker players, most people look at people “playing for fun” as fresh meat. People are constantly crossing the line physically and verbally and nobody talks about it. Most people just say thats what sports are, period. They say violence is a part of it and cheating is part of it. Talking about sportsmanship is just lip service in my opinion, it takes a back seat to winning and ego.” If that is true why do you play with these people? You sound disgusted by the way they behave and conduct themselves but you continue to play with them?

      The assumptions I made were based on your comments. While pro football is a violent game, the NFL has and is continuing to take measures to lessen the physical toll on players. You said the opposite was true so I assumed you were unaware of the things I mentioned. If I was wrong I apologize. But at least my comments were based on things you actually said. You just put words in my mouth I never once said or even implied and then argued about those. What’s the point of doing that?

    • Did you see the ? mark at the end of those sentences USPUNX?? I was asking you if you agree or not. I made no assumption. That question mark is there for a reason. They were all questions not statements. Maybe you were upset with not being able to find much fault in my comment on another thread so you commented on this one as well. You assumed on that one and you assumed on this one. Saying i dont know football.. is a personal attack, not unlike the boys club mentality that comics fans have about truly knowing comics (except with sports fans and players keeping the uninitiated out is accepted even on a comics site).
      Again you make assumptions about “the people i play with”. Of course i was refering to just a few people right? HA. I was referring to all sports and all towns on all courts and fields with thousands of different opponents and teammates. Based on playing all my life in multiple sports in multiple towns with thousand of people i came to the conclusion long ago that sports are so much about ego and winning that sportsmanship easily gets lost in it. Its everywhere and its the prerogative of most athletes so you cant run away from it if you want to play.. you just have to try to set an example. I suppose a good ref and good league policy will change that but as i said i was referring to “pick up” sports without refs. When you dont have refs the true nature of athletes becomes very obvious.
      The fact that you say that the NFL is doing something about violence and then you also say that the NFL didnt give a harsh enough penalty for bounty gate is what you would call an inconsistency if I was to have said it. It was a slap on the wrist and you agree that it was. It sets a bad example for all sports from childrens to the pros. I am aware that the NFL is doing something, but it doesnt change the fact that the most cheered play in football after the touchdown is the hard tackle. By definition football is violent. I like football and like comics. My point was that if you pick at the violence in comics and games then you also have to pick on it in sports. I feel that until recently movies, games and comics have always got an inordinate amount of negative attention when compared to sports. Violence is part of our culture, it needs to be weeded out in all aspects of life. Especially the ones in which actual “real life” violence occurs. I forgot, are we at war over seas now?

    • Jesus learn how you organize your thoughts. You go off on these wild, unrelated tangents and I don’t even know where to begin the discussion. In regard to the other thread I don’t even know what you’re talking about. What thread did we debate in?

      Making the claim that you know about all sports on all courts and all fields is so insane I don’t even know how to address that. Also, I didn’t make any assumptions about the people you play with. I quoted your direct comment and asked you two questions you didn’t answer. And just so you know, the NFL did try to institute harsher punishments for the bounty gate scandal. They were thrown out by an independent arbitrater, not by the NFL themselves.

      If violence “needs to be weeded out in all aspects of life” then why do you play a voient sport like football? Why do you read violent comics? Is participating in violent things your idea of weeding them out?

      And finally, as someone else who plays pick-up sports, let me thank you for being the self-proclaimed example we can all aspire to. And no, not all people who like sports or play sports are the way you describe. You just need to find better people with which to associate.

    • Oh I see, you’re the guy over on the Too Many Comics thread. I should have known.

      And also, this is total BS: “Did you see the ? mark at the end of those sentences USPUNX?? I was asking you if you agree or not. I made no assumption.” Because right after those supposed questions you said this: “Well then maybe you dont really care.” Those questions were hypothetical. You asked them and then answered them yourself. You never actually ask someone’s opinion, that’s pretty clear, you just assume you already know it.

    • blah blah blah.. thanks for keeping it civil. Im Insane now? Are you kidding me? We are debating simultaneously on two different threads right now. BOTH INITIATED BY YOUR RESPONSES TO ME. HA. I didnt say i know about all sports i just said that ive played a lot of sports and after playing with thousands of people it seems to me like the norm for athletes is not to care about sportsmanship. I suppose the thousands ive played with could be a complete anomaly.
      Why are you placing yourself the self appointed defender of the nobility of the NFL on a comic site. This would never happen on a Football site if someone was disrespecting comics. Its part of a double standard. There is always someone who crops up to defend sports and shout personal insults. I find it odd that on a comics site you can not let one negative comment go about sports. Again you take my sentence out of context.. i also said ” Violence is part of our culture, it needs to be weeded out in all aspects of life. Especially the ones in which actual “real life” violence occurs”. Do you see my emphasis on”real life” violence. Its not a disorganized thought its part of the same point. I dont know what you are talking about in regards to me participating. I dont hurt people on purpose, and dont verbally intimidate people when i play and i let weaker players compete.. that means i dont participate in the negative aspects of sports. My original thought was this …yes there is violence in comics but it gets more attention than violence in most sports. That isnt a wild thought. How many people are defending violence in comics in this thread? Not many. But you spring right up to defend violence in sport. So many people do it.

    • I actually condemned violence in sports at every turn. Perhaps you should reread my comments. My initial point was the NFL is trying to curb the unnecessary violence. You are simply repeating the often heard argument that no cares about football players.

      And really, you weren’t talking about all sports? Because you said this: “I was referring to all sports and all towns on all courts and fields with thousands of different opponents and teammates. Based on playing all my life in multiple sports in multiple towns with thousand of people i came to the conclusion long ago that sports are so much about ego and winning that sportsmanship easily gets lost in it. Its everywhere and its the prerogative of most athletes so you cant run away from it if you want to play.” You actually said in so many words, “I was referring to all sports.”

      And you’re right. This has gotten out of hand and I’m done with both of our discussions. I was trying to respond to a point you made, it clearly offended you, and you lashed out at me for that. I am sorry if I offended you.

    • Perhaps you should apologize for calling me insane because you did not know that you were arguing with the same person on two simultaneous threads (and therefor were confused about what i was referring to). Your continuous quoting of me means nothing. Me “REFERRING TO ALL SPORTS” “in my experience” (paraphrased)does not mean that I KNOW ALL SPORTS. Again you made me repeat myself so many times i just streamlined the thought. WHAT DOES THE QUOTE SAY.. it says based on my experience. Get it.. based on my experience. Not on your experience. I dont know what you experienced, im telling you what i have experienced. I even state that my experience could be an anomaly. How does saying the phrase “referring to all sports types” mean that i know everything about sports? The idea was that based on all of my own experience in all of the major sports i dont think sportsmanship really matters to most people. Im not telling you about your experience and you shouldnt be telling me about mine. Is it insane that you think that athletes care about sportsmanship. No, its your opinion based on your experience. As far as condemning violence, ya you condemned violence and defended the NFL at the same time. That is also obviously a matter of opinion. I lashed out at you. You called me Insane dude.. and you initiated both arguments.. Ya dont respond.

    • The fact that I used the word “discussions” while you chose to call them “arguments” explains a lot.

      And since it seems to bother you so much I just want to clear up my usage of the word insane. I never referred to you as insane, I was saying your assertion that “I was referring to all sports in all towns on all courts and fields…” as insane. I apologize if you misunderstood or if that word offended you.

      In all seriousness, from someone who has also played a lot of sports, organized and pick up, in multiple towns, they don’t all have to be as negative as you describe. They can be fun and be about sportsmanship if you find the right people to play with.

    • Can’t we all just get along?

    • This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. The juggernaut vs the blob. @ steve i guess we know what that answer is unfortunately. @ uspunx. Now your using semantics. It started out as a discussion until you started saying i didnt know what i was talking about and that i am flat out wrong. Then it was an argument/debate/whatever. Its semantics. You were so focused on pulling out individual sentences and parts of sentences that you were constantly missing the whole point. On top of all that you were continuously condescending and rude. I guess its ok to be condescending when you have to stand up for the fair damsel that needs saving (the NFL). The NFL doesnt need your help. Comics do. Again you initiated both “discussions” and got almost immediately condescending in both. Ive been out of the internet forum loop for a while. I should have just ignored you i guess but i forgot where i was for a second.

    • Well I was trying to apologize (twice now) and end the argument/debate/whatever but you just don’t seem to want to let it go.

      If you reread both our comments I think we can agree we were both equally rude and condescending. I was too abrasive in my comments and you took them too personally and extrapolated insults I did not intend. I took some of your sentences and points out of context and you extended some of my points into straw men and argued about things I never said or intended to imply.

      We both took this too far and I’m sorry it got to this point. Can we agree to end this and shake virtual hands?

    • When you say i took things TOO personally you arent really apologizing (your dismissing how i feel). We have a different idea what being civil is. If we were face to face you wouldnt just jump out right away and say you dont know football and you are completely wrong and educate yourself before making a comment. You were being rude because you care more about a corporation (the NFL) than a persons feelings (which is fine). The fact of the matter is you wouldnt say that if i was face to face with you, and you wouldnt say organize your thoughts because your ideas are insane. You initiated and you escalated. I got sarcastic perhaps after that but i did not initiate. You dont apologize by saying im sorry if you misunderstood my comment. I dont know about you by if someone said my ideas were insane in real life (which would never happen) I would not forgive them. In the end who cares. I wont comment about your comments for infinity and that will be best for all.

    • You know what, fine. There are so many assumptions and things taken out of context in your post it’s impossible for me to even address them all. You say you can’t stand when someone else does that but then you do it yourself constantly. But I’m sure you’ll blame that on me as well rather than take any personal responsibility for your own words and actions. You draw so many false equivalences it’s amazing. You overreach and extend points to a completely illogical conclusion.

      I’m not sorry for what I said because based on your comments they are true. What I am sorry for is how personally you took them and how deeply offended you clearly are. You can believe it or not, I don’t really care. Just try to lighten up a little, not everything is meant as a dire slight to your person.

    • Also, if you really think this is true: “You were being rude because you care more about a corporation (the NFL) than a persons feelings (which is fine).” That’s really sad. I don’t care more about a corporation than your feelings, or any other person’s feelings. If that’s what you took from what I said you COMPLETELY missed my point. And the fact that you find it “fine” for a person to value a corporation over another person’s feelings is really sad.

    • You know what, I’m just going to be honest here. When I instigated that argument with you yesterday I was having a really bad day. It’s no excuse and I know that, but it is the reason it happened. I had gotten into a rather large argument with a friend and when I got home and came on iFanboy I was in a terrible mood and when I saw your comment I did disagree with it, but I was intentionally overly harsh and rude because of what had happened earlier in the day. I did pick a fight and it was stupid and I do apologize. No qualifications, just I’m sorry. Once it got started it spiraled out of control and much of that was my own fault. Again I’m sorry and I know it’s no excuse for baiting you but it’s why it happened. I wish it hadn’t and I wish I had stopped it soon. Hopefully we can have an actual discussion at some point in the future so I can prove to you I’m not really a total dick.

    • Okay you are not a dick at all. You are a human being. Im not perfect by any means. It takes a big man to apologize like that so you cant possibly be a bad guy. Frankly when i typed this “You dont agree? ah you think thats just part of sports do you? Well then maybe you dont really care.” I was thinking about adding a “If so.. then maybe you dont really care”.. i just got lazy with my typing. I actually guessed (or assumed) even at that point that you were more against violence in sports than lots of men ive met. I really wasnt sure what side of the fence you were on at that point. I just got lazy with my typing. So much can be lost in translation when typing. Leaving out a few words or adding a few makes a big difference. Anyway. No hard feelings, and thanks for being cool about it. No harm done.

  15. “You should see the comments we have to delete around here when the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon gets mentioned. People are angry at that show for being a goofy cartoon made for kids. I wrote a thing when it came out saying that “not everything is made for you,” and people came at me.”

    Dude, you got flack for that because according to the column you were recording every episode, watching them multiple times, and bending over backwards to try to like it before you FINALLY came to that realization that a kids cartoon might not be for a grown man.

    That’s not to say there weren’t unfair comments aimed at you for it. There were. But to some extent you still deserved to get ribbed for it.

    I totally agree with everything else you wrote here, though. No foaming mouth here.

  16. Marvel FF is a great all age book.

  17. Isnt there a whole line of marvel comics specifically made for children? Marvel adventures or universe or something? Excuse me while i go watch the newly released snooky gang bangs the marvel universe sex tape. Hey.. what can i say… i need to get out the poison.. and by get out the poison.. i mean i need to vomit out a few gallons of booze.. so i can be like my “reality” tv heroes.
    Who’s a better role model? The JLA or the Hogans? hmmm.. tough decison. On one hand you got.. oh forget it..

    • There are tons of “kids” books. That new Gotham one coming out in a few months looks pretty “fun”. I might be picking it up for my kids (and me 🙂 ). I think that is a good point though. Before the 2000’s it seems like there were mostly just “comics” and “mature reader comics”, but now there are so many genres that it seems like the “average” comic has just grown up with the reader, and the industry created a new generation of comic geared toward younger kids (I know there has always been all sorts of comics, but from a marketing stand point). Seems to be the case with lots of stuff. Looking back at what I watched as a kid, it was fairly mature (late 80’s). Now there are more “non-violent” options for kids. It’s just up to parents to be parents.

    • Hear hear.

  18. There were a lot of cogent points in this column, not just about comics. I’d say, though, it’s more about comics being dark rather than serious. Serious and fun can be combined – Hickman’s recent run on Fantastic Four was mostly serious, but it sure was a lot of fun. It harkened back to when I first started reading comics in the ’70s in its sheer exuberance for all the ideas and implied craziness inherent in a comic book world. It was usually played straight-faced, but it was a big, colorful playground of a world.

    Marvel Two-in-One is my personal go-to comic for fun comics. Sure, some of that comic’s run now seems creaky and silly, but a lot of it still seems tinged with a crazy joy that shines out of the unabashed embracing of a comic universe’s addled assumptions. Even when Mrs. Grimm’s bouncing blue-eyed baby boy wisecracked or shouted his battle cry of “It’s clobberin’ time!” while battling the villain of the month, the characters, and by extension, the writers and artists, took their creations seriously. They took fun seriously, as a pursuit worthy of being pursued.

    I’m not putting down modern comics. I read and enjoy plenty of ’em, sometimes more than my wallet likes. But there does seem to be a perception among some other comic readers I’ve spoken to that seriousness and fun do not, or should not, mix, or that gritty and serious comics are the ones that deserve the most respect.

    • Ya dark is a better word than serious. Comics are darker than they used to be. Its not necessary but it is what sells. Everything is darker than it used to be media wise though. Its not just a comics problem. Its the way the world is. Im not saying the world is worse (cause it is not).. im just saying that all media are darker then they used to be.

    • Denny O’Neil and Neal Adams brought dark and edgy in the 70’s with Batman and Green Arrow/Green Lantern, then Alan Moore and Frank Miller in the 80’s (they weren’t alone) and the 90’s went overkill with it and now while some of that over the top dark is great for the obviously intended to be over the top and works well with many but I do think plenty of em are handling the dark and edgy with taste and substance with a splash of fun like say JLDark, it embodies all those elements. Bob Kane’s original depiction of Batman was dark and vampire like. Ben 10 and Adventure Time are available.

    • i agree kid

  19. Totally agree with this article. When I first got back into comics as an “adult” I got out a kick out of the violence and thought it was neat. But as I start to get deeper into comics in general, violence for violence sake wore me out. I wanted something fun and goofy.

    Also, not too long ago I wanted to give some comics to a friends kid who was around 7 or so. I had a hell of a time finding something that I could give him. So many of my comics had violence, nudity, drug use, or just stuff that would probably be considered inappopriate. I finally ended up giving him a couple Spider-man comics I had to re-read to make sure were ok, and a Power Pack Thanksgiving issue (which I kinda wish I had back because it was fun!).

    Marvel’s FF has been filling that craving for me. Fun superhero books that aren’t so fuckin serious all the time, but can be if they need to be.

    • FF by hickman and fraction.. its GOLD.

    • FF is the best fun, pulp with a days of old feel for those old enough, yet completely accessible if your not, it’s my only guaranteed digital right now and love it, I just think Allred’s art style on that book is more fun via iPad blown up panel by panel.

    • Ya Allred’s work is gorgeous. If your comment is not a polite and thoughtful endorsement for using digital (some of the time or all of the time) then i dont know what is. If other digital proponents said it the way you just did then I think more people would listen. “See comics from a different perspective and make fun things more fun” try digital… instead of.. “go digital you luddites”. and is it weird to say i love FF 5 times in one day?

    • You know, maybe it’s “Out of sight, out of mind.” I’m very aware of the available kids comics out there – and there are a ton of them – because I currently have kids under 10. BUT, can the average comic shop goer easily point out where the kids comics are in the shop? In my day (old prospector voice), Pink Panthers, Bugs Bunnys and Caspers were on the same rack as Spiderman and House of Mystery. I’m not advocating putting Peanuts next to Punisher, but you have to admit, there’s something missing there.

      That and the fact that many kids comics cost $4, or the digests are $7-$10! What kid is going to spend that kind of money over Pokemon cards or action figures?

    • @steve. I guess it depends on the individual comic shop. I think large successful shops normally have separate sections for all ages and for teen and adult. In my job vertigo was separate from DC even and stuff like bugs bunny was separate from regular superhero comics. I agree the average comic shop goer probably could not point out where the all ages stuff is especially in small unorganized shops. and the cost is prohibitive as well. The thing is that small children dont really buy much on their own though right? You buy it for them. So it becomes mostly a parents decision to buy expensive reading material or cheap toys. I see how plastic toys or electronics could easily win out if your kids beg for it though. I dont know what can be done about the price. Its impossible to compete with chinese plastic. There is always the library i guess but i suppose it may be even more confusing in some libraries.

    • im my shop not in my job.. ha… typo.

  20. Avatar photo webhead921 (@Grapes4Lunch) says:

    The DC Animated Universe contains some of my favorite interpretations of those characters, and I find it entertaining as an adult. I love it now just as much as I did when I was a kid. It’s fun, and it’s appropriate for all ages. It’s appropriate for children, but it still contains wonderful, emotionally resonant moments that get me as an adult. We need more stuff like this that everyone can enjoy.

    • Agreed, too bad “GL” is canceled and “YJ” had so much more to offer. Maybe those shows have a short half-life or something, except JL/JLU which lasted 4 seasons.

  21. In comics, DEATH (adult theme) sales…when you consider the last four (4) titles chosen as top pulls from the ifanbase, every issue dealt with death.

    Batman, inc #8 – Death of a character
    Saga #10 – Death of a character
    Batman #17 – Death of the family
    All New X-men – Death of innocence

    Now we no why The Joker (as portrayed by Heath Ledger) asked, “Why So Serious?”… it’s because ‘serious’ sells!

  22. I believe people’s aversion to the Spider-man cartoon was due to it being terrible. I Remember Batman: Brave and the Bold had a quite a following here.

  23. Also, the people here who want to read somthing like Nextwave, check out Katheryn Immonen’s Journey into Mystery. Please, before it dies a horrible death.

  24. This article makse me miss Thor: The Mighty Avenger by Langridge and Samnee. All ages, tons of fun with great art. Sigh.

  25. Hipster 6 years old…that’s a scary thought..

  26. Terrific and very thoughtful article! Thank you, Jim!!

    Best line: “There is nothing worse than being perceived as immature, especially to immature people.”

    Where is Plastic Man when you need him?

    • Im not sure if this is true.. but i heard that Plastic Man is in rehab. He’s a big coke head now. Didnt you hear about that? He hangs out with Charley Sheen a lot.

  27. And that’s why some people hate Deadpool- he represents fun, and we certainly can’t have that in comics.

    • hating on Deadpool became very fashionable with the ‘in-crowd’ of comics readers i think (having like 8 books out at one time while others were being killed could been part of it) But you’re right, he can be a lot of fun to read if handled properly.

    • @ DoctorDP & wallythegreenmonster

      Good points. Deadpool does represent fun, it’s not exactly all ages fun but not enough fun in adult comix is the issue here and he’s fighting dead presidents right now, tell me that’s not fun. It did become practically a trend to hate on Deadpool cause he is the gateway (and I hate this word btw) “noob” character to get into comix but he mocks everything in good fun and has a total cult like following. On top all that we had the option of getting a Deadpool fix in a serious setting book, the Uncanny X-Force for a cpl yrs. His comic relief was kept at a minimum and he did his job as a black ops mutant, so both sides of the coin were on the table, complaints need not apply.

  28. > Hopefully, once it becomes clear that nobody has anything to prove anymore, the defensive generation will be replaced by one that sees superhero stories as stories.

    It has been. They’re just not reading superheros.

    There’s a generation of creators who grew up reading manga. All kinds of genres of manga, not just stories about dudes with secret identities and spandex suits punching each other. Some of them are making comics that are deadly serious, sure. And a lot of them are making comics that are mostly about having fun.

    My favorite current example is Homestuck. A big sprawling tapestry of a comic that sometimes takes itself deadly seriously but more often than not is about mocking itself, big serious adventures, and the foibles of its audience. And it’s pretty damn huge with teens. You can see a couple hundred people dressed as the many characters in the story at any big comic con now. Especially if its creator is there. Nobody in the “serious” comics world focused around superheros knows what to think of it.

    Superheros? Man, that’s what DAD gets when he goes to the comic shop.

    And I, for one, am absolutely delighted to see the sun setting on the day when “comics” means “superhero comics”.

    • “And I, for one, am absolutely delighted to see the sun setting on the day when “comics” means “superhero comics”.”

      Me too.

    • although i dont see that happening any time soon.

    • @ilovecomics

      The superheros have a lot of inertia but I think the writing is on the wall. I spent this weekend at Seattle’s comic con; while there was no shortage of corporate-owned superhero comics, merch, and costuming there, there was a lot of stuff in other genres on sale. The biggest publishing booth there was Image, who’s only got a handful of legacy superhero books – everything else is other genres. And the next size down? You had Dark Horse holding down a whole block of booths… right next to Topatoco’s same-sized block. I don’t think there was a single superhero in either booth.

      Admittedly my view of the con may be biased as I was there to sell my own SF book, and was mostly looking at the non-super stuff. But I feel like only about a quarter of the new work on sale was supers.

      Outside of comics you still have a ton of people who assume that comics = superheros of course!

    • What’s the name of your comic? Im interested in buying it.

  29. What about Bone? Someone mentioned a Pixar kind of thing and I think Bone falls in that category. To me it is very much like Salman Rushdie’s book Haroun and the Sea of Stories in that it works on many levels based on your age and life experience but all the levels are fun. What do you guys think? Is Bone a good all ages book?

    • I think so. I guess some would disagree with me. Bone is so amazing. I just recently bought the 3 Bone prose novels. I didnt even know that they existed until a couple of weeks ago. They came out over the last 3 years i guess and they have J Smith illustrations in them.

  30. I have a two year old who absolutely adores Superman Family Adventures and we read it every night before bed. I would love to get him some more stuff age appropriate with little to no adult themes at all, looks like currently the closest I will get is Ultimate Spider-Man, Avengers:EMH, Popeye, Peanuts, Adventure Time, and Green Latern:TAS. Those are fun and enjoyable to myself at the ripe old age of 23 but I was hoping for something more along the lines of Owly…

    Anyone know of anything like Owly or the other stuff Top Shelf does for kids that would be appropriate for a preschooler?

    • My 5 year old actually has his own pull list which includes many of those titles. Add Spongebob Comics, Scooby-Doo, Garfield, the new He-Man stuff and he’s nearly got a dozen books every month. He doesn’t need to know the intricacies of the New Avengers Illuminati, when Avengers Earth’s Mightiest Heroes has all his favorite characters in short fun adventures. That’s plenty to just get him interested in the medium, and isn’t that the point?

      PS– Un-cancel Superman Family Adventures.

  31. I quit reading Batman and Robin after they beat Robin to a bloody pulp for a second time since the series started. I mean, who wants to watch a ten year old get beaten and call it entertainment? Sure, it was Damian and we all know he is tough and whanot. Being a vigilante is dangerous stuff. But I couldn’t keep forking over money to watch a kid beaten yet again. Danger club from Image sounded like a fun storyline until it I found out it was all grimdark with the ten year-olds beating themselves to death instead of having adults do it for them.

    Comics can go on being all “mature and intense” until you realise the only people reading it are old and getting older. Then somebody will look back to these years and go “well, if only they made comics fun for kids to read.”

  32. Great article Jim, your last line hits the nail on the head. We all know the majority of comix are geared towards adults but which I see no problem with cause as readers got older thats the way to keep em but there are plenty of kid friendly books, Marvel Adventures of all the big names, DC has kid friendly ones too, I forget the titles but I’ve seen em and at the same time a lot of these titles are edgy enough for adults to enjoy and just under rated R enough for young readers 6-11, 12 and up and you need substance and some edge anyway, also don’t get me wrong as I don’t believe they should all be kill/serious and adult themed but I do see fun books out there, not as many of the variety of fun you speak of but they’re there. There’s adult humor fun like The End Times of Ben and Bram and Todd The Ugliest Kid On Earth then the kiddies stuff relevant to the cartoons, which adults need to look in the mirror if they’re complaining about the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, that’s just silly, it’s made for kids and why they do the PG-13 direct to DVD/BluRay animated movies. My Little Pony and Adventure Time sell well so I think it’s FairPlay.

    • And the stuff with Damian and Kick-Ass, Hit-Girl and AA are definitely aimed at adult readers. Ooh, FF is real fun right now! That’s the example I was thinking of all while writing the above.

    • Also, Superman Family Adventures, Sonic The Hedgehog, Peanuts, the OZ series…..Monsters Inc, Scooby Doo, Nancy Drew…….all fun for kids and some like Archie and OZ for adults too. I bought the OZ series to read to my daughter but do enjoy it as well and love Skottie Youngs art. If the main issue is not enough fun in adult comics, then I suggest redefining your definition of fun or read books like FF, It Girl and the Atomics, Ben and Bram….hell Deadpool is fighting dead presidents, tell me that’s not fun? I find Uncanny X-Men fun, it’s serious but its fun serious to me, maybe cause it read like I want comix to read and that’s fun.

  33. I’ve been of the opinion comics of old haven’t available to us have been as kid friendly as we may think. When I started reading comics with G.I. Joe, it wasn’t uncommon for Cobra soldiers to get popped on panel. In Spectacular Spider-Man, I read about the gun-toting killer called Sin Eater who committed suicide by cop. Speaking of gun-toting killers, Marvel published comics featuring a homicidal maniac called The Punisher. Joker beat a child with a crowbar. Prior, he was whacking Gothamites left and right along with Batman’s rogues gallery. Mary Jane and Peter Parker had a sex life though subtle in its on-panel portrayal. Bad girl comics. Even Dick Tracy planted a few bodies while violating the U.S. Constitution in a newspaper strip during the late ’30s. And so on and so on.

    Before, there were pulp novels. Further back: the non-Disney-fied Grimm Fairy Tales. Ever read how the Tin Woodsman lost his limbs?

    As far as violent and sexual content goes in media aimed for all-ages, kids and teens, nothing really has changed for more than 100 years.

    Compared to some responses, I’m a bit more liberal. I wouldn’t hand an issue of Tarot to my 8-year-old step-daughter but if she wanted to read Wonder Woman (Perez, Rucka or Azzarello) I wouldn’t tell her to beat pavement with a copy of Adventure Time.

    That’s insulting.

    • You are correct in what you say regarding some of the violence in older comics. But I would argue that part of the difference is that those tended to be a bit more exception to the rule than today. There’s also the way those acts of violence are portrayed in word and art has changed.

      Personally, I think there’s a happy medium that could be there. I often use Batman: The Animated Series as an example. Dark, adult stories (some guys even got killed). But done in a way that kids could still watch it.

      And truthfully, I think that needs to be explored a bit further in comics. Otherwise, companies will keep printing to an ever-shrinking audience instead of gaining new readers who might start reading younger then move to those more “adult” titles.

      That’s how I think of things anyway.

  34. I believe a quote from C.S. Lewis is relevant here.

    “Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”