SecretFinalInvasionCrisis #2


I knew it was coming, I knew that, eventually, Final Crisis #4 would come out and I would have to continue the saga that is SecretFinalInvasionCrisis… but what else is there to say about these books?

A lot, apparently. As before, I am going to talk about the main books but when it makes sense, I will give some mention to the supporting/auxiliary books for both Final Crisis and Secret Invasion. I realize, of course, that these two events are apples and oranges… but they are both fruits, right? They are both things that we eat, that are sweet and, well, have seeds for more apples and oranges in the future (yes–way to keep it going!). Both of these events (if you can call them that, we’ll talk about that below) are supposed to have fairly far reaching effects, but both should be enjoyable as standalone tales in and of themselves. Let’s begin, shall we?

Secret Invasion, Story Evasion

I finished Secret Invasion #7 while eating lunch with my wife Whitney, and I must admit, I had to fight the urge to throw it away toward a crowd of tragically hip diners. So, I was a bit loathe to go back and re-read it after issues 5 and 6 last night, but, I owe it to you, dear reader, to re-visit the story to see if it was me, or the dressing on my “tartine” that riled me up so.

Let’s go over the basics:

The Secret Invasion books, so far, have been hardcore plot heavy. We knew this — this is very much a Marvel book, with an emphasis on character and plot — but you would think that there would be some exploration of the emotional and even spiritual reckonings that would come about when an alien race straight-up invades and takes over your planet. At first I thought the Front Line books would touch on this, but they don’t. I guess this makes sense; the book is very much “on the ground” and there has not been a lot of time (this event seems to take place over three days or something) to realize that is happening, much like in the recent War of the Worlds remake. Aliens land, you run, you try to fight, you flail a bit, then you run some more. Not a lot of time to ruminate on how screwed you are.

Starting from issue #5, we have some good moments — I love Agent Brand and the sequence where she rescues Reed Richards and I really enjoyed watching Maria Hill blowing up YAH (Yet Another Helicarrier) but really, this issue was just a widget to help resolve the initial battle on Savage Island (we had to get Reed there to end it somehow). Issue 6 is all about foreshadowing the use of The Wasp as a secret weapon (if she’s there, then the Skrulls win, “as a last resort,” according to the Skrull queen. Then we get two full page spreads of YAB (Yet Another Battle). So, for those keeping score, we about an issue’s worth of story in between the fight sequences.  

We get to issue #7 and it’s fight, fight, fight! But wait — so much on the page… is that Thor? Is that Captain America? Like, at first, I kinda liked the little logos and labels that let you know which character is which. But… really? Each issue? We don’t need new opening credits for each issue, guys. We know who is who. Maybe it adds something… but what? Like, hey, this is Thor — so watch out! This is Luke Cage — he’s awesome! I think it’s annoying, but it might just be because I am so incredibly tired of the fight sequences — awesome looking to be sure — it was great to see HankSkrull get taken down by Bullseye (look at the giant dude fall! Go gravity, go!) and yes, Clint taking over from the other Hawkeye was bad-ass, but really… is this it? Seriously, maybe I am the wrong guy for this book, but like, the hero battles don’t thrill me. I appreciate Lenil Yu’s awesome art (though I liked him when he was sketchier, to be honest, I like my comics a little gritty — wouldn’t this book have been insane if Alex Maleev did it?) — his story telling is thrilling and his his two page spreads are great pinups, but now what? Like as far as I can tell, Secret Invasion, the main books, have been about two raging fights. Big whoop. Big freaking whoop. And we end with… giant Wasp! Giant Skrull Waspy Big Fight Time To Come Next Issue! Yawn — a nicely drawn and action packed yawn, but yawn nonetheless.
What’s so Secret about these big ass battles? This is basically just World War Skrul l– the whole Invasion, the cool part, the sneaking around taking over part — it all already happened! This is basically We Have Been Secretly Invaded — to the extreme!
Let’s talk a bit about the other books. There were a few I liked — the one where we see how Hank was taken control of by the Skrulls (I think that was what happened, with the college girl, remember that one?), then there was that one with Jessica Drew and Nick Fury… but, like, good luck finding those stories, you know? Were those stories in The Mighty Avengers? The New Avengers? I know the guys mentioned this in the podcast, but if any event needed “event” numbering, it’s Secret Invasion. I have no idea which books were which (the covers were useless — all of the covers has just irritated me to no end, I can’t believe Ron hasn’t called them out yet) and no idea how they tied in with the main titles, other than to give some backstory that we didn’t really think we needed in the first place (with some exceptions, sure) — not all were crappy, but, like, I couldn’t figure out which ones were good since the covers had nothing to do with the story and I didn’t want to deal with paging through the past few months of Avengers books. Then the official tie-ins… they were just basically smaller versions of the battle that was happening in the main book. Secret Invasion: X-Men = Big Fight in San Francisco! Secret Invasion: Black Panther = Big Fight in Wakanda! The only one that took it a bit differently was the Secret Invasion: The Inhumans. Yes, they are fighting on the moon, but the task to free Black Bolt from being a big-ass Skrull weapon is actually a good, individual story. Same with Guardians of the Galaxy — yes, there was a Skrull tie-in, but it actually meant something, we actually got new information (friendly Skrulls!)… and that’s the value of a solid tie-in.
But, mostly, the drama has been that “Oh wow, that dude over there — he’s a Skrull! Or could be… let’s kill him — yup — that’s a Skrull… wow, so intense! How many more times do we have to do this? Two more issues? Cool — then we can get back to our own story, right? And you promise I don’t have to do anymore event stuff for awhile, right?”
(Deep breath.)

 

Final Crisis: Ongoing What’sthis?

The one month break since the last issue didn’t help this book, I gotta say. I read #4 this weekend and really had no idea what was going on. The art was, for me, terrifically uneven (yes, I realize there were multiple artists, but still — yikes). Again, it’s not a fair comparison (but maybe it is), the art in Secret Invasion, overall, has been very consistent and top notch. There are some fantastic pages to be found in Final Crisis, but overall, it should be way better. Way.
Let’s do a quick review of Final Crisis #3. We hear about this anti-life equation, which basically renders anyone who reads it unable to make decisions for themselves. We find Libra forcing other baddies to wear some kind of helmet (after which they become Justifiers, I guess? A good name — the Justifiers never give up, you know?), if one doesn’t wear the helmet, they have to “renounce science, swear an oath of the Bible of Crime and serve [Darkseid].” The heroes are a bit out of the picture (some more conveniently than others): Batman is captured, Hal Jordan’s been taken to Oa by the Alpha Lanterns, and Superman is glued to Lois’ bedside, keeping her heart alive with his heat vision. By the end of the issue, Wonder Woman is captured and, with Batwoman and Catwoman, are basically powered Justifiers, hunting the baddies. Her scene with Mary Marvel, all dressed up in leather with some “work” done by the Flesh Farm in Command D (reminds me of the Command-D “Duplicate” function on the Mac) that is placed under the rubble in Blüdhaven. Plotwise, we see the ant-life equation unleashed to every email address and every communications device in the planet. This reminded me very much of the Skrulls “He Loves You!” global broadcast in Secret Invasion — again, the stakes are high, global stylee — in both stories; more on that later.

Final Crisis # 4 gets a proper assist from Final Crisis: Superman Beyond and Final Crisis: Submit. The books fill in the gaps left open between the two books, and I think both do a good job. What’s important about the Final Crisis books is that they are good stories on their own. Like, the Rogues Revenge and even Revelations books (I am not as huge a fan but I get it), they are compelling stories that build on the themes and characters introduced in the main Final Crisis books. But Superman Beyond and Submit are more directly tied plot-wise to the main books so I think they should be at least touched on here.  Superman Beyond, while a bit of a headache to navigate (the 3-D effect is cool, I guess, but it really didn’t contribute that much to the story), does look like it’s going to address the Lois injury while touching on the origins (and future?) of the multiverse. The story seems to take place in less than heartbeat in “real time” so it will be interesting to see what happens to the story when Supes gets back and Lois is healed. Submit sets up the fall of Black Lightning and establishes that The Daily Planet (now the underground paper of the resistance) is being printed at the Fortress of Solitude — the power of the printed word, the only real source of news and hope is emphasized here. (Take that, digital comics!)

Final Crisis #4, I admit, confused the crap out of me when I first read it. I had to read previous issue to remember what was going on — there are a lot of characters in this story, and though I read a lot of comics, I don’t know all the various characters as well as other readers, I guess. Once I re-read Final Crisis #3, I enjoyed it a lot more, but still, I have some problems — there just seemed to be a missing issue, or some gap in time… like, when did all these people get to the Watchtowers? Last time I saw Supergirl, she was working on a new outfit, now she’s at the Fortress of Solitude with the Metal Men and some kids printing newspapers, I guess? And then, there’s a scene where our heroes are running away — who were those little superheroes in the bottle? Of course, I could check out this site for answers (thanks to Brian H for the link!), but if the comic needs annotations, shouldn’t they be in the book itself?

(I really want, at some point, for Darkseid to bellow, “He loves you!” just to get it over with. Yeah, I know it’s snarky, but I still think it would be funny.)



So, as we get close the end of Secret Invasion and basically in the middle of Final Crisis, what has changed? I am sure lots of other people are talking about these events, but I will just toss a few thoughts into the ring.

Marvel continues to be plot heavy and all about the action, all the way up to the end. For me, Secret Invasion is a Missed Opportunity to do something really subversive and interesting with the Marvel Universe. I like Marvel, but I am not a Zombie, and I don’t get a nerd-on for these big battles, which I find boring. The stakes just aren’t there. DC killed off the Martian Manhunter. Marvel kills off Skrull versions of their characters. (By the way, is The Sentry still wetting his pants in space? What happened there?) I guess I am supposed to be all impressed by Marvel Boy telling people to stop fighting, but no one’s listening to him, so whatever. And with Janet being all big, what are we gonna see? Her death? Am I supposed to be all sad about that, too? But maybe the Skrulls will win — Evil Wins! (a la Final Crisis) — and then, what, we’re gonna be subjected to a few months of “Embrace Change” and then we’ll get rid of the Skrulls? Like, here’s a secret–$(%*@ the Skrulls. Get rid of them. Who cares, anyway, really? It’s not like the effects of this invasion are making any kind of impact on the other books — it’s a twist on the old adage — if there was a world changing event and none of the other books showed up, would it still be a world changing event? I don’t see this stuff effecting Matt Murdock’s messed up life. I don’t see Spider-Man taking a break from job hunting to find out if Aunt May is a Skrull… like, Marvel tipped their hand when they made the tie-ins separate books. By design, this is a local event that will have no real universal ramifications — which may be just as well. Don’t need to take down the other books, you know?

Thematically, as before, I feel Final Crisis has been more compelling. It’s certainly better written, with ideas and themes that are actually given some space and focus. The anti-life equation is hokey, but the commitment is there and there is no nidge-nudge-wink-winking surrounding it, so, as a reader, you buy it. When you stick with the Final Crisis books, you really do feel that the world is coming to an end, you know? Thumbs down, indeed — Grant Morrison makes you feel, if only for a second, that evil has won, that the heroes cannot possibly refute the science behind Darkseid’s victory — the equation refutes science and dismantles resistance. The Justifiers make sure that the anti-life equation is delivered and “good” destroyed. One can always justify, right? Whether it be through science, belief, or emotion, justification is available to sway an argument. Now, for me, this is just more interesting. When you take the equation and look at it, and think about what it would be like to have that… happen, is that the word? Applied? Whatever — if you think about those concepts of fear and hate, all those elements and personalize the impact and imagine what your life would be if that equation was applied to you and your family… it’s heavy. It’s much heavier and more emotionally resonant than watching a bunch of heroes in tights fight each other over and over.

Of course, Final Crisis has its own problems. In a way, I feel like the whole thing is an Elseworlds tale, you know? It’s not impacting the other books, so, as a final crisis, it certainly doesn’t seem to be upsetting the other books. Which is fine, I guess — perhaps it is too much work to make a “real” crossover event, maybe the returns are just too small when compared to the amount of work and frustration it causes readers and creators. In this day of the trade, perhaps events should just go out in trade form, you know? The scope of both of these books are supposed to be so far-encompassing that they cannot possibly deliver if we are supposed to think about the other books on the shelves. If restricted to a trade, then fine, you got it.

As we get close to the end, I think we see a bit of how these books are going to be judged in the years to come. Secret Invasion is just another big team up comic book with comic book characters, themes and stakes. Final Crisis is a comic book that is seems to be trying to be more thoughtful, more emotionally resonant with the reader. We are at different stages of each story, and there is at least one more plot twist in each story before we get to the end, so there is room for Secret Invasion to grow and for Final Crisis to collapse under its own weight. I am enjoying both (though I think I am enjoying Secret Invasion more for Lenil Yu’s art) and am looking forward to seeing what we’ll be talking about in SecretFinalInvasionCrisis #3.

 


Mike Romo is an actor in LA. His most recent crisis happened this morning, when someone rear-ended him on his way to work. You can tell him why he should like Secret Invasion more at by emailing him at mike@ifanboy.com.

 

Comments

  1. Paul Montgomery (@fuzzytypewriter) says:

    Major, major article, Mike.  You covered a lot in this piece, but I think you balanced it very well, and gave a fair shot to both events by re-reading issues and offering alternate takes on your initial impressions.  It’s a really thoughtful analysis.  

    For me, my enthusiasm for Secret Invasion fizzled out around the time it started coming out.  I sort of wish that the background had been released in New Avengers and Mighty Avengers before the actual event.  There was so much promotional build up leading up to….more build up.  I think they bit off a little more than they could chew and in doing so, reduced all the really big dramatic moments to really transparent story beats.  Events that should be cool just don’t have the impact they could have had if more attention had been paid to the surface of the story, rather than the flashback tangents.  I definitely agree that it’s all one big boring fight scene after another.  

    FC, while really convoluted, is the superior event.  For one, it’s got emotional resonance.  This book is creepy.  It’s really a horror story, and as you mentioned, they really sell the idea that this is an end of the world environment.  And that makes Secret Invasion look even worse in comparison.  Because a widespread alien invasion and body snatcher scenario should be terrifying.  And it just isn’t.  The fights have no weight other than the hooks.  "ooh, that looked cool." Flash, no substance.   

  2. While I’m enjoying both events, I’m ready for Secret Invasion to end. It’s just not fun anymore. A handful of heroes who have been written suspiciously over the past 4 years turn out to be Skrulls with few other surprises. And now any big revelations that Hero X was a Skrull or Villain Y was a skrull are more or less behind us in the story. So the answer of "who can you trust?" is more or less… everyone but Spider-Woman, but the reader was never supposed to trust her from her reemergence. We were never given a real chance to be able to say "Oh, she wants to be on this time for this reason," or "Obviously, Hero X really trusts her." So the only major revelation was that a character, who without the knowledge of her Skrull-ness, the audience was never supposed to trust… is a turncoat (again. ((again.))). My only hope now is that we’ll find out Hank Pym has been a Skrull for years and we can finally move on from him slapping Janet. Finally.

    Final Crisis, I’ve just been enjoying on the whole, more so then SI. I was talking to a friend of mine, and well, if you’ve read Morrison’s DCU work from JLA through now, this event pays off a lot more than just another Crisis. In JLA, I believe after the "Darkseid Is" arc, it was predicted that they might not have fully averted those events from happening, but maybe changed the circumstances through which it happened. Seven Soldiers really leads directly into this story and feels the same. (Indeed, for those who don’t know Morrison’s version of the Anti-Life equation appeared fully in SSoV: Mister Miracle.) But at the end of the day, after issue 4 and the tie-ins, I felt like the DC universe has really lost something this time. It feels… dangerous. While I admit, I wish it weren’t so delayed and that there was a little more space to fill in what exactly happened to get some characters from location A to location B, I think the story is progressing a logical way. Also, this issue will be fondly remembered for the little character moments of Barry Allen. "Sorry I’m late." sums up all of the Barry Flash run so perfectly.

     

    Anyway, fantastic article Mike.  

  3. Excellent points, Mike.  I agree with you, but I’ve been thinking lately about who the target audience for these books are. 

    While I certainly understand that comics have "grown up" with their readers over the past decade, there’s something about a ginormous fight scene that really takes me back to my "Secret Wars" days.  I have no doubt that I would have absolutely LOVED Secret Invasion if I was reading it back when I was 14.  I can see myself with the book open to the splash page and just poring over it, trying to absorb what every character was doing.  I guess I’m just jaded now.

    I think comic fans often talk out of both sides of their faces.  We want sophisticated and intellectual storytelling for adults, and then we complain that comics aren’t geared enough for the younger crowd.

  4. Don’t you think that if either event "affected" the companies’ other books there would be a massive hue and cry about "having to buy all the titles to make sense of the story?"  Wouldn’t that make it just another "Millenium" or "Secret Wars II?" 

    Is there a mid-point between Dan DiDio saying to Geoff Johns, "you’ve got a pretty good head of steam on Superman, but Grant needs him to be off-universe in Final Crisis, so for the next six months you’ll be writing ‘The Adventures of Bibbo’" and Peter Parker being post-pubescent forever? 

    At the end of all this, will we have a new status quo in which, in DC, Wonder Woman is a villain and Batman is dead?  Of course not.  People wouldn’t buy "Wonder Woman: Agent of Darkseid."  If the Skrulls win and all the Marvel heroes are underground, fighting a losing battle in which they die, one by one, and are replaced by Skrull dopplegangers, would anyone buy Marvel comics anymore?

    Personally, that’s just about the only thing that could get me buying a Marvel title that’s not written by Abbnet and Lanning, but that’s not the issue, here. The issue is that, as comic book readers, we don’t want change.  We want stories that promise change and then… nothing.  We want Bruce Wayne as Batman, Clark Kent as Superman and all the familiar trappings of our childhood to remain exactly as they’ve always been.  At the same time, unless Marvel and DC promise big change, we get bored and stop buying the books.  We have the companies in a bind, and the fact that Secret Invasion is always the top seller, every week it comes out, is representative of both our power, and our culpability.

    Why not change the status quo in a fictional universe?  A world where evil has won is too much like our own to be escapist.  I don’t read comics because I want to be reminded about the last eight years.  I read comics because I like to believe that a better world exists, but if evil doesn’t get the upper hand, good can’t come back and win in the end.  That’s a fact of storytelling.  These stories are, on a grand scale, exactly like the typical comic book story in which the hero meets the villain, is smacked around by the villain and then comes back from behind to defeat the villain.  Nearly every comic book story is set up that way.  Morrison and Bendeis have just expanded that to encompass the entire mythology, rather than just a single character.

  5. I like change.  Change happens all the time at DC.

  6. Change back also happens, that’s why a lot of readers feel like none of these events matter from either company.

  7. I use the Republican/Democrate joke by Lewis Black to describe FC and SI:

    ‘The difference between Final Crisis and Secret Invasion; Final Crisis Blows, Secret Invasion sucks!!!’

    In all seriousness Mike you decribed both series and compared them so well that it makes my discussions about both look like a 4 year old mentally challenged boy wrote them. But I agree with everything you say about SI: It’s a fun comic, but overall there is no depth and for the most part it will most likely be remembered for a team up book or big fight scene. While FC has been very convoluted at points but still is fun to read and has more story depth then the entire Secret Invasion so far.

    Only time will tell what people will think of both series in the future…..But right now ones sucks and the other is convoluted but entertaining…at least in my views. (Again I feel like a four year old now)

  8. So, I take it I’m the only person who doesn’t like Yu’s artwork?

    J.G. Jones, on the other hand, is a gentleman and a scholar. I met him in a Starbucks.

  9. @connor  But is it change we can believe in? 

    Seriously, I’ll believe that change happens at DC when, at the end of RIP, Bruce Wayne is dead, another man (or woman) takes his place as Batman, and the whole thing isn’t erased in six months with a Lazarus Pit.  Or when one of the other Kryptonians takes over as Superman when Clark retires to make Superbabies with Lois.  Sure, a Manhunter dies, we get a new Green Lantern (and then get the old one back, and the the new old one, and the the old old one before that).  We change to a new Flash, and the he dies, so we change back, and the change even farther back to the Silver Age.  

    We hate change so much that we find ways to keep 75-year-old characters active as super heroes, including a 75-year-old boxer, when boxers generally don’t even live that long, let alone keep their form.  We couldn’t even leave Ollie Queen dead, or let him get replaced by his (far more interesting) son.  We keep the son, and the ward, and the new ward.  By 2010 we’ll have a Legion of Flashes, the way we already have Arrows and Lanterns.  There’s no "passing" of mantles, only new characters, like barnacles, clinging to the side of fifty-year-old characters.

    That’s why I don’t think Final Crisis will really change anything: fans don’t want it to.  If it did, there would be a letter writing campaign and whiny posts on message boards.  Kyle Rayner was a perfect example of readers’ unwillingness to let go of the past.  Personally, as someone who loved Kyle, was happy to see Barry go and would love to see RIP end with Kathy Kane as Batman, I say "embrace change."  I think I’m alone in this.

  10. @Quinn – Batman will die but he will be cloned so you get the best of both worlds. Or maybe a different earthed Batman will appear.

  11. @Quinn – Do you only accept the change you want as change?  Because DC has been changing their universe and their characters on a regular basis for decades. 

  12. Mike, I completely agree with your assessment of Secret Invasion.  I feel the same way about the book, and some of us discussed this on the forums this week.  Personally, I’ve been really, really enjoying FC and have found it to be the superior event so far.  While SI has it’s strong moments, the real shit is happening in the DCU.

  13. @conor I just lost a really long, interesting reply, which is sad.  Short version: I’ve supported, with my dollars and my love, the new Question, the new Spectre, the new Aquaman, the new Manhunter and the new Green Lantern.  I support change on principle, and I’ll typically buy a genuine reboot, until it is unrebooted.  When Hal Jordan came back, I stopped buying Green Lantern.  I’m not interested in the way things have always been.  I want to see characters advance.  I have two points, though.

    Point 1: Fans want stories that promise change, without the actual change.  No one is interested in "Spider-Man vs. Electro, Round 50."  At the same time, remember the fan reaction to the end of "Brand New Day?"  Fans, on the whole, want to be teased with change, but not actually have to deal with losing anything (Green Arrow is a prime example of this).

    Point 2: Stories that bleed into every title are equally loathed.  "Secret Wars II" has come up on this site.  "Millenium" was DC’s effort to prove that they could do lousy, pointless crossovers that every title tied in to.  "Crisis on Infinite Earths."  "Zero Hour."  "Inferno."  That’s what happens when the event ties into every book: pain and misery.  I like the model that both companies are following, I think: tell the core story, and when it’s over, reboot the universe.  That, to me, would be a perfect end to FinalSecretCrisisInvasionCrisis of Invasive Finality: every title stops and starts over, with the good guys acting less like Gods Among Men, and more like the French Resistance.  That’s lasting impact.

  14. @Quinn – You keep saying fans don’t want change.  It’s still not true.  Se my previous comments as to why it’s still not true.

  15. @conor Are you saying that you think that fans would support a DC Universe in which Darkseid was victorious and all of the books were about the heros’ resistance to his domination, a fight they can never win?  Do you think people would buy an entire line of Marvel books in which the Skrulls ran everything, forever?  I’m saying that I don’t think they will.  Do we really disagree on this?

    What does everyone else think: would you buy a Batman comic, post-death of Bruce Wayne?  A Superman comic in which Clark Kent wasn’t Superman?

  16. Honestly, I want change. I’m tired of story 1300 about Bruce Wayne. I want a new Batman. I want to see Batman taken over with a slightly different feel. I am tired of the Batman we have. And didn’t pick up any of his books until RIP, hoping that, to some degree, I won’t see Bruce Wayne (for a while at least) after it.

    I am tired of Superman being the last Kryptonian. I am tired of Kyle Rayner being the last Green Lantern. (Whoops, Geoff Johns got those two.)

    I’m very big Green Lantern fan. Hal is my favorite. I stopped reading comic shortly before he was ruined by DC editorial. I had to find out my boy hood hero had been turned into a silly even villain off the back of a toy box. But I gave Kyle Rayner a chance. Did I particularly like the character? No. But it was a different direction that I did enjoy. Did I get tired of him being the last GL… except for that one? Oh, and that one. Oh, and those two from Apokolips and New Genesis. And that one… and Kilowog’s soul… and yeah. Yeah, i did. But I also got back a good character in exchange.

    I was loosing faith in the X-Men (a book I’ve always stood by) until the SF move. (Even my love of Astonishing was waning.) I liked the different direction. I’m glad Morrison killed Jean again, because there was a good story along the way.

    So… I do want change. Change that is lasting.  Change the means something. And Civil War didn’t deliver on that change. How many times have the Secret Avengers and the Mighty Avengers "had" to team up since Civil War? I believe I count 4 times. That’s a lot. Considering most of those stories were 4-6 issues long. Change that we’re not getting from SI, as far as I can tell.

    I don’t see lasting change coming from FC yet, thought I believe it might just be in the realm of the New Gods, but we’ll see.

    So… I want change. I want it bad. Even if it’s a change I don’t really want. (Oh… and Brand New Day is not change. Had they done it how JMS wanted to do it, it would have been.)

     

  17. @Quinn: I might be in the minority, but I would actually love to see something on the lines you said. A good year or half year of the DCU completely rewritten cause Darkseid won? That would be a breath of fresh year instead of ‘Villains win early on, Heroes win ultimately; status quo basically unchanged’.

    Dark Reign would be a great idea, if it didnt feel like it’s Part 2 of Secret Invasion….or at least how that is being hinted at or advertised….But then again we know very little about it so we (or me) cant judge until that happens.

    As for Batman dying, I know I’ve talked about this on the forums with conor. But I dont think he’s dead quite honestly. Unless the final part of RIP shows him dying or he just randomly dies between now and the ‘Battle for the Cowl’ event for next year; then he is still alive. But will he stop being Batman if he dies? I honestly think ‘no’ because the hints that the FC Batman is Bruce and Morrison telling us RIP is after FC makes me think he’s still Batman. It wouldnt make sense that Bruce would quit being Batman after two horrible events in his life; one is good enough. Plus on newsarama today Dido stated that ‘Bruce might be fighting for the cowl as well’ so….that means he’s alive right? I dont think a corpse/retired man would be fighting for something.

  18. Y’know I just paged through SI but I caught that Jan didn’t just grow but had some sort of affect on all the heroes.  That should at least invoke a "What’s going on?" instead of a yawn.

     Conor is 100% right about the DCU.  Robin became Nightwing.  Barry Allen gave way to Wally West who was the Flash for a couple of generations.  Just because Barry returns doesn’t negate the change of replacing one of their first line heroes.   

  19. Nightwing and Barry prove my point nicely, actually.  Both of those changes happened in the age before the internet.  Now there would be immediate fan reaction, boards would be spammed and people would vow never to buy the Titans, or Flash, again.  When was the last time that anything of the magnitude of Barry’s death happened?  Blue Beetle didn’t have a book for people to drop.  Freddy took over as Captain Marvel, and DC largely pretends it didn’t happen.  These things fail because fans don’t "embrace change." 

    If you can name two, specific, permanent, ongoing title affecting changes that weren’t moves backwards (someone comes back from the dead or resumes an old role), and didn’t lead to the cancellation of said titles, I’ll buy a Fear Agent trade paperback and write a review of it.  The new Aquaman proves my point.  Bart as (dead) Flash proves my point.  Even The Question and The Spectre prove my point, as I’ve read multiple reviews of the changes to each character that say, "these changes are anethema to the characters presented in Gotham Central."  I already acknowledged Captain America, though few people think that will last out Brubaker’s run.  Am I missing any?

  20. @Quinn – I don’t understand your point at all.  Have you changed your thesis to say that internet posting comic book fans (who are by no means the majority of comic readers) don’t like change?  That is not the same as what you said before.  It is a blanket statement that is clearly not true.  Many people quite like the new Question.  Many of them are frequent this website.  Of course you can find multiple reviews saying that some particular person doesn’t like Renee as The Question. Are you looking for universal approval?  That’s impossible.  There isn’t universal approval on anything on the internet.

    How do you define "moving backwards"?

    Aquaman doesn’t prove your point, no one bought the book when it starred the original Aquaman either.

    People liked Bart as Flash (some did and some didn’t – again, there’s no universal opinion out there), the problem with that book was it was horribly written.  If it had been well written it would have been received better.  That had nothing to do with change and everything to do with shitty writing.  Wally is back as The Flash now and by your theory everyone should be happy, right?  They got their character back.  But no, they are not because the writing is still bad.

    DC doesn’t pretend that Freddie isn’t the new Captain Marvel didn’t happen.  He was just in a book.

    Also, few people do not in fact think Steve Rogers will come back in Brubaker’s run.  It’s fairly well understood from Marvel’s end that Bucky is going to be Captain America for years to come.

  21. @BrianBaer, I don’t like Yu’s art either, but it’s better here than it was in New Avengers.

    Apparently I’m the only person wholeheartedly enjoying Secret Invasion. I don’t know what the rest of you were expecting, but honestly, it sounds like everyone posting should never buy another Marvel "event" again.

  22. Aw, Come on. They’re comic books, enjoy the story. It doesn’t have to be some groundbreaking prose or Watchmen. I’m just reading F.C. and I think its great.

  23. great discussion, guys.  I am pleased/relieved (pleareived) that you liked it; honestly, the subject matter is was a bit overwhelming, but still–this stuff is interesting, made much more so by the conversations you guys are having.  I gotta admit, I have mostly been interacting with the board through this website and the comments, not the forum, so I hope I did restate previously made points.

    Regardless, I am curious–very curious–to see what’s up after SI 7.  Maybe we can have a 4 issue miniseries on how they will rebuild New York after the Hulk and Skrull battles. The real heroes may turn out to be the city planners and architects.

     anyway, hope you guys are having a good week,

    mike

  24. Once the Skrulls will realize there’s no point in bickering they will ensue a career as illegal workers on US soil. The super heroes will invade the Skrulls and will capture them and sentnce them to community labor on earth. Humans will protest the cheap labor and the Skrull cows scandal will be revealed, and then another crossover that will shake the Marvel universe and change things entirely.