This morning, writer Warren Ellis spoke up about the big DC news, with their complete relaunch and going day and date digital. It was a great 
inside view that I haven't heard yet, and it might give you a perspective on the situation you hadn't thought of before.
One crucial thing hasn’t changed. For as long as I’ve known him, Dan Didio has believed the key to a resurgent DC is reclaiming all the readers the commercial medium lost in the 90s. On the DC Retailer Roadshow, he’s been hammering this home. Recent statements about how commercial comics have gotten boring and that there should be more visual punch in the mode of 90s comics movements like the early Image Comics work and (unspoken, but certainly associated) the Marvel style of that general period… have made their mark, but have also misled a bit. It’s all about accessing that hypothetical lost fan base. The impression the recent statements have left is Dan saying “comics used to sell loads back then, let’s do that again.” And that can’t happen in print.
and
Comics used to sell loads back then, yes. But a big part of that — and this is the part he isn’t mentioning — is that there were ten thousand comics shops back then. And now there are, optimistically and rounding up, about two thousand. There simply aren’t the number of outlets left to sell the kind of volume comics could shift in the 90s.
Basically, Ellis thinks they want to go back to the 90's, and from a sales standpoint, why wouldn't they? But the number of comic shops is the problem.
If that's the strategy, the solution DC has come up with ends up sounding a little simplistic. For one thing, we're living in a different world now. Since that time, the internet has subsumed culture, and just offering the books digitally isn't really addressing that change, because it's the same product, repackaged. It comes out on Wednesday. It's shaped the same, it costs $3, and it has 22 20 pages. Where's the revolution? Where's the change? I'm not talking about motion comics. I'm talking about doing something differently.
I don't want to sound like I want to change comics. I love them. I even love them in paper, or their nearly identical digital version. But, it might just be that there aren't that many of us who do like that anymore. If people really wanted comics, they'd go to the stores, and buy them, and the stores would order more comics, and then more shops would open, and we'd go from 2000 stores to 4000 stores. Or people would buy them on their iPad, and make up that difference. I can't say I see that happening. That audience from the 90's? They're gone, man. You gotta give them something different. Rethink the model.
DC have made part of that step, but really, they're just going back to the same starting line they were at before. Lessons have been learned for sure, but will it save comics and their business in a revolutionary way? I don't think so.
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That makes sense with all of the costume redesigns looking like they came right out of the 90’s.
On one hand he cites the increased availability of “comic shops as a reason that comics sold more in the past.
On the other hand he discounts the increased availability that distributing comics digitally will provide as a way to sell more.
The man is a genius writer but those seems like contradictory statements.
Sure just going digital isn’t the answer but I am telling you right now within a fiscal year DC Will see a substantial increase in sales.
I am on the record.
@ericmci I’m inclined to agree.
@ericmci They aren’t really contradictory.
In the 90s, there were lots of shops to buy them, so lots of people bought comics.
In the 00s, there were few shops, so few people bought comics.
In the 10s, there will be same day and date digital distribution, so people will buy comics.
Subscription rate for 10, 20, etc. titles a month; stories and arcs with no 6 issue trade mandate; embedded links for character info and related titles or dvd/Young Justice clips for cross-marketing; a more fluid publishing schedule; free issue codes accompanying toys, dvds and Happy Meal tie-ins. Are these ideas even being discussed? Is there a survey I can fill out? One step in the right direction isn’t going to get it done here.
I agree with the point that they’re trying to redo what happened in the 90’s. Getting 90’s superstars and becoming “edgy” is doing that.
But I would have to disagree with the number of shops theory. The reason there are less shops is because comics sell less, it’s not the other way around.
I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!
no one listens to me… :weeping:
the Tiki
With a few exceptions the (approx.) 2,000 shops that survived are selling more than comics. Games, toys, videos, apparel.
What do these things have in common?
None of them need to be acquired in any particular order. There’s no other medium that expects you to come back every month (week) to a specific location (away from home) to enjoy it.
DC is doing the right thing in going day & date digital but I think (hope) it will be clear that single stories are the way to move units.
@stubbleupdate The contradiction he was citing, and one I noticed also, is that Ellis refers to the availability of comics to the public being much lower in the previous decade because of the loss of those roughly 8000 shops which then made the collapse even worse. He then says that the Internet doesn’t change that when in reality I would say that it will all but evaporate the availability issue in the next couple of years.
Now, if you wanna argue whether this “If you build it they will come” strategy will end up working that is a whole different issue.
Same-day digital can make a huge difference in sales. I think it’s much more important than having more comic shops.
Josh makes some good points about changing the way comics are delivered. Digital really opens things up because there’s no need to ship books or stock shelves. Why not 10-page weekly issues? People are already trained by television to expect their entertainment weekly. Batman comes out every Monday, Superman on Tuesday, Green Lantern on Wednesday, Flash on Thursday, JLA on Friday.
I’m not saying this is the perfect solution, it’s just one way to look at things differently.
When it comes to digital comics I always wonder… how will they compete with say Angry Birds? When you enter the digital arena it is no longer DC vs. Marvel, it’s COMICS vs everything.
the Tiki
One more thing about my suggestion for 10-page weekly issues: they could sell for 99-cents each, hitting the magic price point.
Here’s a huge point he was leaving out: In the 90s, people were buying huge amounts of comics, yes. But they were buying them with the hopes of reselling them later for a profit. If a comic sold a million copies, it was NOT sold to a million people. many people were buying multiple copies of a book. If one person bought 50 copies of an issue, than realized they were going to be worthless later and stopped buying, the industry didn’t lose 50 readers, it lost 1.
The problem is the 90s, with it’s emphasis on art over story, and collectible product rather than an enjoyable one, drove away the fans who sustained the industry for the previous 60 years: people who bought comics to read and enjoy.
When you drive away the majority of your loyal readers, and replace them with people looking to make a quick buck, then THOSE people realize they aren’t making any money and THEY leave, you are left with almost nothing. Only the most hardcore of comic readers stuck around and made it through the dark days of holofoil covers and polybagged comics with trading cards and the like.
I know I stopped reading comics in the 90s. And believe me, comics were my LIFE. To this day, comic books are my biggest passion. I know more about Marvel comics continuity than I do about my own family tree. And I was driven away. I occasionally bought a Dark Horse comic from time to time, or some other indy book I happened to stumble upon, but my days as a serious buyer were long gone. Comics had lost me as a reliable source of revenue.
It wasn’t until about 12 years ago I came back after a long hiatus. I never stopped loving comics, i just stopped loving the comics that were being made during the 90s. I still read my old comics over and over. But it wasn’t until the industry almost collapsed and they started bringing in better creators to write stories that people could really care about that I came back. truthfully, if I hadn’t picked up the first issue of David Mack’s run on Daredevil and been totally blown away by it, I probably wouldn’t be reading new comics today.
Instead of trying to relive the 90s, comic companies should learn from the mistakes of the 90s. don’t look at how many comics you were selling. look at WHY you were selling them. If it was because people wanted to buy them in bulk with dreams of making a fortune a few years down the line, that model will not last. It didn’t last then, it won’t last now.
look to a time when comics were selling in big numbers to people who actually READ them and learn from THAT model of your business instead.
he touches on something that i really agree with, and thats the sameness of comics right now. There are tons of talented people working in comics, but the form, the design of the pages, really hasn’t evolved a whole lot.
By that i’m talking about panel layouts, pages, sizes, format. No experimentation and innovation. I hope with digital comes experimentation with storytelling, but its doubtful.
Sure there is variation between creators but its baby step degrees. I’m not seeing a lot of experimentation of what sequential storytelling can do at least not in a mainstream comic. I don’t know what i’m looking for, but i know that i see creators reusing the same basic panel structures and sequential moves across the board. I see colors that look mostly the same, inking etc. I’d like to see more different.
Comics aren’t very culturally relevant right now and i think alot of that has to do with the fact that they are an old fashioned object that unless you are a wednesday warrior connoisseur, they all look the same.
@JohnVFerrigno Bingo. Comment of the year.
@JohnVFerrigno –yeah i tend to agree…the caviat is during this past Ultimate Spiderman #160 drama i saw A LOT of people even on this very site declaring their intetion to buy multiple copies. Seems like Marvel is succeeding in that 90s strategy which i’m sure most all of us would agree is really a phyrric victory.
I no longer see the appeal or need of buying multiple copies, especially when everything is saved digitally and historic events saturate the market.
I’m not as convinced that speculation was as rampant as everyone thinksin the 90s. Or at least not in the way people often think. While it certainly existed (and long before the 90s, shazam 1 and Howard the duck 1 were big speculator books long before we called it that) i worked at 2 stores in that time period, and knew many people who worked in stores and none of us saw speculation as the dominant audience. A solid percentage but not from a majority.
What is more likely the cause of those sales figures was the proliferation of those 10000 shops. That figure is not actually the number of stores but the number of accounts with distributors. Many of those were not comic shops. Every month there was a card show with weekend comic dealers who usually trafficked in hot books. A video store near me had a rack of comics in the back for a while. My dad ran an antique store and he had an account. And a ton of fans who decided to get in on the gravy train. I know of at least 3 shops that opened and closed in less than a year, just within a few mikes of me. They bought comics, often in large numbers hoping to score the next big thing but never actually sold many of them to consumers. a large portion of the speculation was not on the consumer level but on the retail level.
Of course none of this changes the fact that we dont really know how many people actually bought those comics ( though it seems likely it was much more than now) we dont know why they bought comics ( fun or profit.) and more importantly why they stopped. We have some anecdotal reasons but no real good data. Until we know why people don’t read comics we cant figure out how to get them to start or start again.
As a complete off topic aside, while many of the spelling mistakes are my own, many of them were the fucking autocorrect on my iPad. I’m about ready to goddamn smash this thing. Digital comics will never take off until autocorrect does a better job of being a better speller than me, because I will just start smashing iPads when I see them. this damn keyboard doesn’t help either
Sorry
JohnVFerrigno well said.
A little odd that Ellis doesn’t mention the collectors bubble.
Why would anybody contemplate bringing back the horror of the nineties?!
Are comic books so worthless that we have to sucker people into buying them
with promises of pie in the sky.
The same crappy attitude that pushed the Death of Superman into our faces.
Has it occurred to a Dan Didio that quality books like most of Allen Moore’s books,
much of Neil Gaiman’s stuff, Frank Miller, Transmetropolitan, Fables, Y… well all the classic stuff;
Those books don’t just sell. They go on selling for decade after decade.
DC knows, they turn all that into big oversize books.
I guess nurturing talent (hail Karen Berger and Vertigo) or god forbid reward your talent (All praise Dark Horse) It isn’t as easy as selling those profitable collectors items or death of the DC Universe comics.
@Cavebird im sure it has occured to didio but the names you mention, don’t work for dc any more because dc either screwed them or they can make more money in other media or on their own or both.. I’m sure dc would gladly hire any of them back, but they aren’t interested, and honestly I don’t see anyone in comics that are at that level. Maybe Morrison, and dc has him and all star superman, we3 and much of his catalog are still in print. Vertigo and dark horse actually sell less than dc books. Hardly a motivation to nurture or reward talent
This one’s got it all:
1. Prism Foil Cover.
2. Impossibly large guns for super-powered characters that really don’t need to use them.
3. The ubiquitous 90’s leather jackets/vests with multiple pockets/pouches.
4. The nonsensical sight of the Human Torch wearing a leather jacket. What…is he cold? Is the ability to burst into flame and fly not quite cool enough?
5. The Thing’s ridiculous bucket-helmet, tights, white booties, and ammo belt.
6. The desperately self-conscious and condescending “This is not your parents’ comic magazine” line at the top of the cover.
Last, but most certainly not least…front and center:
7. Sue Richards, a.k.a. “Ms. Naughty Stockings, Space Prostitute”.
Stolen from:
http://comiccoverage.typepad.com/comic_coverage/2008/01/worst-cover-eve.html
And you’d swear Liefeld drew this.. where are the feet? THE FEET!!!!!????
I just found this at comiccollectorlive.com
Everybody who wants to bring back the nineties raise their hands.
abstrackgeek
“Vertigo and dark horse actually sell less than dc books. Hardly a motivation to nurture or reward talent”
Vertigo has a bunch of books that just keep on selling.
After a decade or two they might even make as much money as the damn Death of Superman.
And yeah because DC would screw their talent especially in the nineties, they lost out on properties
like Hellboy, Sin City, 300…
Dark Horse sells less but but they’ve got significant market share the only company to to that other
than image.
Most of the effect that we still feel from the 90s is that we can’t buy comics in drug stores, convenience stores, etc. So the dwindling number of specialty shops are hurting because the direct market is insular and strangling, and it’s hard to introduce new readers to something they have to actively seek out. It’s really ridiculous that there are so many good ideas in the feedback to this article alone that could do wonders for the industry, but no one at DC has these ideas? Or can implement them? Either we’re missing something huge, or the head honchos at DC are just not thinking. If they want comics to sell like they did in “ye olden days” they need to actually make them for kids again, put them where kids are, and sit back and reap the rewards. We are adults and will find the ones we want regardless of where they are.
@Cavebird There was a lot of “style of substance” on books in that era. Too many holofoil/hologram/gimmick covers, polybags (“ploybags” we called ’em, since it was a ploy to get you to buy them), all emphasis on art and none on story… It wasn’t just speculators, it was the comic publishers catering to a speculator market by making this crap that caused a lot of the damage.
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is that comic book specialty stores are not the only places to buy comics. What about other retail locations? If anyone hasn’t been in lately, Barnes and Noble stores are stocking a LOT of comics. DC, Marvel, and some indies. They are prominently placed in the periodical section – at one store, it is the first thing you see when you come in. There are over 700 B&N stores, and I was told all would be stocking as many comics. I think this has potential to be a huge boon to comics because it exposes more people to comics and makes them available without having to go to a comic store. I’m sure there are other retail locations that also sell comics. The local Toys-R-Us even has a comic rack.
I hope DiDio is not leading the company down the wrong path.
I always thought that has been the biggest handicap for comics. The stores are dying out and since most other stores won’t have a rack of comics, let’s say, then you only have a niche to work with. The only places you can buy single issues in my area is at a Barnes and Noble and my local comic store in a 10 miles radius.
Could digital help this? It possibly could. But I think more availablity on a physical level could do the industry some good too.
@Toshimoko29 –they figured out that a kids allowance isn’t as much as a 25-40 yr old single male with disposable income. Now making digital comics for kids…thats a good way to go. my 5 yr old niece uses touch screen phones and tablets with ease and can navigate netflix streaming by herself. Consuming media with technology will be normal for her generation. Traveling to a store to buy a floppy pamphlet once a week is something grandpa used to do.
Its tough for publishers to do anything drastic. They’re hanging on by a shoestring trying to appease and bilk obsessive fans who want slight variations on the same archetypes, structures and art and writing styles. You do something new…and you lose the only customers you have, but you also make sure you don’t create many new ones. its a viscous cycle.
I like to think what Warren Ellis is getting at is this:
DC has to give their talent licence to do something different, something new.
They did that with Sandman and Y and Fables and Transmetropolitan, and Planetary;
And those books are all classics now that just keep on selling.
DC took chances on other stuff too that didn’t work out so well.
But in the balance the winners more than made up for the losers.
When they seize to encourage new and seemingly crazy stuff (like the Dark Knight Returns)
Then they seize being a publisher and become a reheat/reprint shop.
Milking old Allen Moore ideas. bringing film genre trappings to comics,
updating silver age stories, -not good enough.
Also I’m sure there are things can be done with digital comics that would be impossible in print.
Come on DC let’s see some creators go off the rails.
I don’t want to seem to be the one bitch-slapping the bluebird of online happiness off it’s day/date perch, but unless DC decides to drop prices of new comics online to under $2 and/or give people a Netflix-like unlimited opportunity to go through anything more than 60-days old from it’s files, Didio and company may as well use the Titanic’s business model for success. And even in the best of possible worlds, are there enough “potential” readers out there to pump some money into this medium of ours?
As a parent and educator, I see some silver linings and some road blocks in gaining the types of numbers Didio must think are out there. (As a totally great and curious aside, my daughters have a plethora of pretty craptastic Barbie dvd’s…and Barbie is thrown into damn near every crazy situation imaginable, short of Barbie’s on the Point. You can tell the show runners/producers just decided that because it’s Barbie, it will sell no matter what’s going on. One of the early producers…Dan “The Man” Didio. No horseshit!) But I digress…
Some of the silver linings include free comic book day(s) which can be very successful, if you can get the books into the hands of “potential” readers. I would love to see free comics given out at public libraries or at elementary, middle and high schools. Go where the readers ARE! Create a set of primer comics (and not the reboot comics, which I unfortunately think will descend into a hot ass mess within 6 months, although I hope I’m wrong) that can be redeemed through happy meals, web sites, cereal boxes, etc. Give away a few thousand tickets at NYCC, C2E2 and SDCC, to parents with kids, and students with ID’s…then have a special meet and greet in one o the large assembly halls. Get a roadshow going and have people dressed up as THE DC heroes giving out comics through radio-based promotions.
Of course, some of the roadblocks include an unwillingness, or misunderstanding on DC’s part and how they can get the readers they need. Little ads at the end of a movie aren’t going to help. Finally, DC should really invest in literacy programs across the United States and abroad. I really and truly learned to read and develop an incredible vocabulary because of comics. And they have to be cheaper…like drawing the line at $1.99. Three and four dollars for ten to fifteen minutes of entertainment just isn’t cutting it.
Pretty sure I overran my time, but thanks for letting me vent.
Peace.
@ComicreaderX I really like some of your ideas, as well as @LtPaper. Rather than concentrate on getting PAST readers back, the most important thing I think any comic company should do is start laying a foundation for the future. That means getting them to the kids and building a following. They already have merchandising with all the characters and cartoons, so now hook them on the comics.
With each Happy Meal toy, action figure, DVD, etc. they should gave away a free digital comic download. These could be special, shorter comics made just to go with the toy/product, or maybe it’s for one issue of the character in question. Tie this into a free app, like the DC app or graphicly, so that you have to read the comic in the app. Then all these kids will be exposed to all the other content available for purchase in the app. They will whine to their parents to let them buy another 99-cent (or $1.99, whatever) comic, then another, then another. And the parents will give in just so the kid stops bugging them about it (I can attest to that!). And before you know it, you’ve grown a comic reader and customer.
I’m of the opinion it isn’t just the Comic Stores disappearing that is the main issue. I use to remember a spinner rack in every convenience store and grocery story, Magazine and News Stand, some times in Barber Shops for parents to buy the kids getting haircuts. I remember my first Comic shop was a spinner rack at a 7-11 that I could walk to when I was 8. I remember spinner racks at gas stations and road stops and gift stores. They used to be everywhere. I havn’t seen one in ten years and I hate to say it but if an 8 year old has a 5 dollar bill and the choice between 1 comic or a huge bag of nickel candy, nickel candy wins.
I think they priced themselves out of mainstream accumulation. They need to get those apps out and then get people downloading them and freebies through movies and other mainstream stuff is the way to do it, I think in the end the prices may need to get cheaper too.
Digital comics are the fake wood laminate flooring of the industry.
and sadly they shouldn’t be and have no reason to be.
posted it before and agreeing with Josh here, digital comics should be different from print comics.
it’s a wasted opportunity otherwise.
Digital comics are a new art form that should evolve accordingly. Using it to re-create another art form (developed for an entirely different medium) seems like a complete waste of potential.
intro explanation:
Hardwood floor evolved on its own, creating an art form due to its own limitations.
Roll vinyl and laminate are new flooring art forms but instead choose to just take an exact photo of a hardwood floor and put that down. Great for cheap people with no respect for the hardwood
floor art form and its reason for being, but it denies all the things vinyl/laminate can do that hardwood floor cannot (all over/continuos patterns, lack of grooves, edges or grout lines).
My corolation to the 90’s era gimmickry is that, if you do not let digital comics evolve into its new art form, you will be forced to just have a print comic with gimmicks once more. Instead of foil covers and holograms you will instead have “author’s commentary” or “original pencils screen”. All just “add ons” to the standard print comic. The creative potential for digital comics is amazing. I only hope i live to see it fulfilled.
I’m very interested in the way the tablet/digital way can make a standard book more interactive. Remember back in the day when a book would have a footnote and say “last issue-Backlog Bob”? Well, a digital book can just put a link there to that issue or to a wiki page. There is huge potential for embedding links into the books to help out the new readers.
@Crucio The absence of spinner racks is a huge loss. I had a conversation about it with my father yesterday. My niece decided she wanted a comic book, so my father said he would get her one……and he couldn’t find one. They didn’t have any anywhere he went. he finally found a convenience store that had THREE comics to choose from. How are we going to get new readers into comics if new readers can’t FIND comics?
Street retail is the key. Out of sight out of mind.
Look at Apple computer, I have been using Apple products for 25 years (back when it was the niche, expensive, artsy computer). When Apple finally got into Best Buy (for a second time) their public awareness grew. After that they slowly began to start a retail brick and mortar store here and there. More people could come in and PLAY with their products first hand. Then the retail chain exploded… and so did their sales.
Don’t dismiss the “product discovery” power of Brick and Mortar .
the Tiki
@tiki There are a few things to add to your apple example. Apple decided to go with Intel, ditching IBM’s processor; intel is a big name in computing and that got a lot of people excited. Apple then did an agressive ad campaign that told people how their product worked by comparing to the opostion/competition, which came at a time when a lot of people were frustrated with Windows. I worked at a future shop (best buy in canada before best buy bought them out) and sold lots of macs to people because they now new about them, wanted something that worked and were frustrated with their current situation. then the opening up of their brick and mortar stores, and the introduction of new game changing items.
Speaking of apple’s game changing items. the original ipod is a big reason that apple has become what it is today, and i think that’s what @josh and @john are pointing out, that it’s not just adapting to something else, it’s taking comic books and changing them completly.
sure the ipod was no differnt than the walkman or discman; someone could walk around listening to their favorite group/album, but the ipod opened that up to getting multiple artists/albums on one device. and lets not forget Napster for allowing that to happen.
Comics don’t only need to be availble on a new platform, they need to take advantage of that platform, and because the newest tech out their is all about interaction, comic books need to be that as.
one more thing. How many of you pick up your comics on wednesday, read them, then put them away, probably not touching them again for some time? thaat is most wednesdays for me, unless the book is fantastic and i will have a need to do it again (which was last night, with Tec, AV and YA).
@Crucio I grew up in a very small town and used to ride my bike to the local drug store or grocery to pick up comics. Now the only stores, other than comic shops, that carry them are places like Borders, Barnes & Nobles, or Hastings. These major retail bookstores still have them but every small shop stop and I think it is because of the price.
Totally forgot about the spinner rack!! There were two grocery stores my Mom frequented/lived at, and while she shopped I would just sit down in front of the spinner rack and veg out. When it was time to check out, I could usually get one or two, and I was elated. I still remember, and have, an issue of Invincible Iron Man where Tony’s suit is getting slagged by the Living Laser on the cover. Damn, those are some great memories! I’ve seen a few racks here and there in the last five or so years, but with the prices being what they are, those racks aren’t moving any product. DC and other companies have to be willing to change prices to maintain revenue streams. Instead of charging me $16 or so for a TPB, sell it to me for $10, since you ar essentially wanting me to pay nearly full price for reprinted material. And again, my digital has to be cheaper than my paper copy to make me interested. I just hope that we readers aren’t just pissing into a hurricane and that, good or bad, our purchasing power in the next 8-10 months is something the industry will look at.
@JohnVFerrigno –totally agree. you can thank Diamond and the Direct Market for that. If you can’t return an unsold product, those old spinner rack retailers won’t touch comics with a 10,000 foot stick.
I agree with @thefreakytiki–the power of discovery from Brick and Mortar is still HUGE, but i think the strategy of getting more people into comic shops is a bad one. Getting comics into more types of stores is the right direction i think. As long as comics are only sold in speciality hobby shops, they will be invisible and irrelevant to the general public and especially new youthful readers. Comics have a lot in common with things like model kits, baseball cards, stamps etc in that they were once available in mass market places, and now are only sold in specialty shops…and they all have shrinking fanbases, very small niche audiences and are almost completely irrelevant in pop culture. Thats not sustainable for long term growth.
I really hope that the digital thing can get comics in front of a new generation….but sadly i think that the pricepoint is way too expensive. I love the idea of .99 ten page installments but that would change storytelling wouldn’t it? We’d take already short installments and chop them up into shorter ones. So we’d get a cliff hanger every 10 pages? yeah i dunno how fun that would be.
Though the smaller numnber of comic shops is not the entire reason why comics don’t sell as well now as they use to it dose play a role in their sales numbers. In Tampa there use to be half a dozen comic book stores and now the only one i know of is Greenshift music and comics where I have my file.
@wallythegreenmonster diamond and the direct market have little to do with the lack of spinner racks. There is a lot of misconception and misinformation about the history of comics distibution. The spinner rack died off because they werent generating enough money for the stores in question. all of those mass market locations started dropping comics leaving only the direct market (and this was well before diamond was the only distributor).
The only way the direct market hurt the spinner rack is once someone got hooked on a title, they often switched to some direct market outlet because the spinner racks did a poor job of reacting to sales and market changes. There was little consistency in the selection (and really very poor selection of tiles overall), no reorders, and large numbers of damaged copies. it was difficult to get consecutive issues of titles that way. collectors had to find comic shops, mail order or conventions to fill in gaps. Once they realized they could get everything they wanted that way, and a ton of higher quality books the newsstands wouldnt touch (you needed the comics ccode to get distributed) they stopped going to the spinner racks which couldnt compete. Diamond and the direct market were not responsible for the failure of the indepenent distribution model, as much as the failure of the indepenent distribution model is responsible for the direct market.
In addition the mass market availability was killing the market. Sales were higher then because comics were in a wider range of places, but the price for that accessibility was returnability. returns were offsetting much of the sales. a comic may have sold 200000 copies but if it shipped 300000 copies you are taking a loss on 100000 copies. If you look at sales figures which were published in the annual statement of ownership boxes (real sales figure legally required for second class subscription postal rates) you see that was pretty common. Spider-man was a top seller through the 70s and 80s. It routinely sold 300000 copies, but it was shipping over 500000 copies. Many small publishers over the years have gotten thrilled about newstand and bookstore exposure, only to go out of business due to huge returns that they dont have the ability to absorb. returnability works for trades because once returned they can sit in a warehouse and be sent out again when orders come in, or they can be resold at firesale prices. monthly comics dont have a long enogh shelf life to make that work.
digital solves much of that. no printing means no returns, shelf life is meaningless a slong as there is server space. not as common as a spinner rack but still the potential for the impulse buy if it can get some front page placement on the itunes store.
@abstractgeek –well that may have been how it happened, but what i was getting at is, TODAY Diamond has a monopoly on comics distribution which effectively shuts everyone who’s not a comic shop, out of selling comics since their polices are not friendly towards mass market stores. I don’t see a drug store or grocery store manager sitting down with Previews and dealing with that madness while lecturing 8 yr olds on the importance of pre-ordering..all that for a product that virtually expires the day after it comes out, has razor thin profit margins and is non returnable.
I’m sure all of what you said is true, but in today’s world, the Direct Market either by design or evolution has made it almost impossible for anyone besides a comic store to sell comics.
i do agree with you about the digital thing. As i said above, the ritual of going to a physical store every week to buy a printed pamphlet will seem like an archaic, prehistoric tradition to kids who are growing up today with an iPad in their cradle and on-demand everything.
I’m jumping in without having read the entire thread, so forgive me if someone has already mentioned this….
If Dan Didio is indeed wanting 90’s readers back, he needs to remember that part of the massive 90’s market was buying comics because of their speculative values. And they were buying fifteen copies of every cover variant and first issue out there.
It would be GREAT to have a percentage of them return. But to expect 90’s sales from a returning 90’s reader base is not going to happen. No one is going to buy 15 digital copies of Detective Comics.
Luckily it doesn’t appear that DC has all their eggs in that basket and they are making an earnest attempt to grab a new generation of readers electronically and creatively. Cross your fingers.
Speaking creatively, it feels less that DC is trying to ‘recapture the 90s crowd’ specifically and more that DC is targeting a lot of DIFFERENT crowds of lapsed readers, one of them being the 90s crowd.
I hate Rob Liefeld, and have largely negative feelings about Scott Lobdell’s writing from the 90s. I think Jim Lee is badly overrated, his work passable at best. But their books sold a lot, and they have their fans. There are SOME people that those books are going to appeal to, and DC trying to attract those readers is SMART.
I, Vampire is not a book that conceptually appeals to me (though I will get it because Fialkov is a great writer). But Vampire Romance has an audience. DC trying to appeal to that group is SMART.
Diversity, for me, means very little in terms of my enjoyment of a book. But I am absolutely sure that for some readers, seeing someone that represents them a little better means a god damn lot. DC trying to attract those readers is SMART.
I love the old school Vertigo, and I love the current Vertigo. Those old books, especially, were massively successful in the 80s and early 90s, and brought a lot of different types of people into the comics fold. DC trying to recapture those people, or recreate that phenomenon of new readers with a desire for somewhat more sophisticated storytelling is SMART.
Wildstorm during the Ellis era was an extremely popular universe, doing things that were more ‘adult’ (which is very different to what Vertigo was doing, which was more ‘mature’). Spy TV shows and movies and fiction, war fiction, sci-fi fiction…there is a market for that. DC is smart to try to bring in those old school readers, smart to try to bring in new readers who aren’t interested in superheroes.
They’re diversifying their lineup, and what that means is that if you dont’ like every book coming out of DC, they are doing their job. They’re not gearing it towards you, or me, or any one person. They’re not trying to breed a new generation of fans who will pick up every book in the DCU so they can get a full picture of the universe. They’d rather get 10 readers, each of whom picks up 2 books, than 2 readers who pick up 10. The latter is what has been killing the industry, the former is the only reasonable and sustainable way to grow it.
People keep saying the 90’s speculator thing drove fans away. I don’t know why. I was buying comics during that period, and enjoying them just fine. The fact that a book had some holofoil or die-cut cover really had no effect on me one way or the other. I’d buy the books I liked and not buy the ones I didn’t, same as I did in the 80’s and the 00’s.
How did the fact that somebody was buying several copies of some #1 issue stop you from buying your one copy and enjoying it?
@wallythegreenmonster the thing is diamond only has a monopoly in the direct market, anyone could start a distributor and sell comics to a drug or grocery store. All of the disrtibutors that sell magazines, books dvds etc in those locations could easily carry comics, and marvel and dc would gladly sell to them. they choose not to because historically it has been shown that they make more money for less work putting something else in that place. Returnability is not diamonds call, but the publishers. Newsstand sales had a much lower discount level than direct market items. Publishers need to increase the profit margin to offset the returns. This lowers the profit margin at retail and makes a less desireable product. And retail NEVER handled the ordering of product, as you point out it would be too daunting. That was always handled at the distibutor level, which is why newsstands couldnt easily adjust ordering on a store by store basis. Diamond and the direct market certainly have problems, and deserve some seriosu criticizm, but we shouldnt pin as much of the industrys problems on them as we do.
and wally even more off topic, i wonder if you have noticed that we are very often in disagreement in these posts. whenever i reply to something i disagree with, very often its one of yours. i am saying with with all honesty and no sarcasm or snark that is easily read into things on the internet, how glad i am to see such passion for the funnybooks even though we disagree. You are a worthy adversary sir. And im glad Ifanboy provides a place for me to show you you are wrong. now that part was me being a smart ass but in as much a friendly kidding as i can convey. again hard to do without spelling it out just to be safe.
and we are in complete agreement on digital as the futur,e and the need for it to be something new, and it is. the double feature comics have commentarys and you can view the pencils, inks and colors, seperately. another book i got only unvieled one panel at a time as you clicked the page. things even moved in the panels and you could click certain characters and objects to get info on them. Marvel and dc will wait to see how the form shakes out, letting small publishers take the risk. marvel and dc are racing to be number 2 or 3, never number one, and im glad for it, as that leaves a lot of room for small guys to stake a claim in this new arena.
@abstractgeek –having an opinion means you care! haha i haven’t noticed as much as you, but i do agree that discussion is always awesome. Since you’re Galactus that means i’m Reed? =)
well i guess anyone COULD set up a distributorship, thats like a mega investment. If its true what you say about the non-returnability being a publisher level thing (makes more sense actually) then that right there is the rub and seemingly a giant problem for the product. Maybe in print it can’t be solved…and digital is really the only way to go after that market.
As someone who designs stuff for a living i’d love to see all kinds of extra features and storytelling evolution in digital content. It could really open up things for creators if they write/design for it from the get go. At this point i just want them to take baby steps and release the stuff like DC is starting to. That stuff will come later.
I think we can all agree. We love comics, we want to see more people, especially kids get into it. We all want to see it be super relevant in pop culture again. It kinda makes me sad when my nieces and nephews who are excited for characters like Spiderman in cartoons and games and toys, but not the comics….
@glennism – I think what people are saying is that the 90s focus on gimmickry over quality drove fans away. A large portion of the buying public at that point wasn’t reading the book, just buying them as an investment. The companies geared their practices towards that group, but it was an unsustainable base. When they realized their investments were useless and worthless, they left. But the people that had been reading the books themselves, they were disaffected by the downturn in quality of a lot of them, the focus on marketability rather than storytelling. And so they left to.
Not to say everything of the era was bad, but I think people are generally speaking to this when they say it drove fans away. No one was afraid of all the gimmicks, it’s just that the gimmicks took precedence over story quality.
@glennsim I don’t think the speculation per se drove away comic fans in the 90s. I just got burnt out on the dozens of new titles and the feeling that i had to read them all or at least try them. Yeah I shouldn;t have felt compelled but I did and the company wanted to make you feel compelled
Didn’t DC also announce that they would be allowing returns as well? That’s a major change in policy that could definitely help with the “newsstand/retail” market. I don’t know if they have already started this policy or not, but that might be part of the reason why Barnes & Noble is stocking so many comics now.
As much as I love my LCS, that model is dying. I think retail, along with digital, could make a huge difference. We have to bring up a generation of digital readers, because not every current paper reader will switch to digital. It’s going to take a while, but I believe my children will be the first generation to go 100% digital.
@kennyg –i think the returns are just for the #1s. I agree about the digital. If you’re in your 30s you grew up before the internet. Think about how different that world was from what kinds of technology kids are growing up with today. craziness.
@glennsim The reason people got driven away wasn’t the speculation or the foil covers or whatever. If somebody wants to buy a hundred issues of a Spider-Man comic, that has nothing to do with my buying one copy and enjoying it. What happened was, companies stopped worrying so much about the content of the comics. They worried more about the “gimmickry” and what would make people think it would be worth money. They spent more time making 5 variant covers and not enough time making sure the story inside as readable. During this period there was a HUGE drop in story quality, especially at Marvel, because artists got way more power than writers, eventually leading to the artists writing the comics themselves. The problem with that is, not all artists are John Byrne or Frank Miller, who can write as well as draw. Some of them are Todd McFarlane, who wile a great penciller, is a crap writer. The bland, lame stories drove away fans of the stories in comics, and when the bubble burst, the speculators left, too. There weren’t many people left who wanted to buy comics.
@JohnVFerrigno Well, someone buying 100 copies of a Spider-Man issue DOES have some impact on someone who can’t find one as a result. Or someone who had to pay some ridiculous inflated price (thanks Overstreet!) for one issue because of speculators. I’m sure us older readers remember some of the pricing we saw in the 90’s for back issues. Freakin ridiculous. I do agree with you about more attention being paid to the outside of a comic than the inside. Bad writing is bad writing.
@wallythegreenmonster I didn’t know if it was only for the #1’s or if that would be an ongoing practice. It would definitely help with retailers and bookstores. It would probably give a more accurate count of how many issues are being purchsed by readers and how many are sitting on shelves or in long boxes at your LCS. I don’t know how many back issues the store I shop at has, but I’m betting it’s at least 1000 just on the wall shelves. Those are books he’s stuck with unless he can sell them.
And yeah, the internet. My kids have always had it. They don’t know life without it. Reading things on a screen or pad is normal to them. That’s the market that digital comics should be going after in every way possible. They are used to the instant gratification and buying things digitally. They have drunk the Kool-Aid and like it!
I wonder do comics sell less because where I could once buy two comics for so many $$, I can now only buy one.
Even two or three years ago I bought more comics than I do now, because I cant’ afford as many as I used to. I’m sure some people have stopped buying comics all together, but I imaigine a lot of the drop in sales comes from people just can’t justify $4 for a 22 page segement of a story.
I’ve been collecting Spider-man for years, but it’s not my favourite book at the moment, so I’m dropping it, so I can get two other books I am interested in.
No way is there only “optimistically and rounded up…..about 2000” comic shops. There’s 7 comic shops where I live (Sacramento). That would be almost 1% of the total.
Comic book shops are almost gone in this world. DC and Marvel has played many games in the past! I’ve been collecting for 30 yrs! And I’ve seen alot in those years; the biggest impact is the price of a Comic book, with less pages to read and done by computer……..I still like the old school paper and print. DC is going to lose a lot of readers with this event.