iFanboy vs. iFanboy: The Graysons


From: Conor Kilpatrick
To: Paul Montgomery
Re: The Graysons

Paul,

As someone who hates Dick Grayson but loves the circus, I wanted to get your take on the news that The CW — the network that brought us Smallville and Birds of Prey (sorta) — has ordered a put pilot (which means the network pays through the nose if it doesn’t make air, which means there is a good chance this will actually go to air) called The Graysons. The potential series is described as a re-imagining of the early, pre-Batman life of Dick Grayson.

I’m curious to see what you think before I give you my thoughts.

Conor

 



From: Paul Montgomery
To: Conor Kilpatrick
Re: The Graysons

Conor:

Ah, the “Weakest Robin” series. It seems that the show runners are on the same page as me, having decided to distance themselves from the character of the comics by referring to him as “DJ Grayson.” Very similar to a decision made 30 years ago to rename Bruce Banner to David Banner in The Incredible Hulk TV series. But then it’s not so much the name of the character that bothered me. It’s the fact that he isn’t Tim Drake, the cleverest of Bruce Wayne’s wards. Dick was always sort of a “Starter Robin” wasn’t he? If we’re going to be honest. Like the malformed test tube Sigourney Weavers in Alien Resurrection.

They do have some interesting opportunities here, in that Dick Grayson’s path hasn’t been retraced nearly as much as Clark Kent’s. He’s still going to be in the shadow of the bat, but there’s more of an opening to introduce new characters and to tell stories that aren’t tainted by historical precedent. It’ll be a challenge to build this world, but that could lead to more creative choices. With the evolution of Smallville‘s own sense of continuity, I also think there’s going to be much more leeway to diverge from canon. Because, comparatively, there’s not as much to diverge from, and because we’ve already seen them get away with some revisionist fun on Smallville.  e’ve realized it’s okay to try a unique spin on an old classic.

Now, do we have confirmation that the show will focus on the circus life? If so, that’s the element to bring me on board. But that’s just me. DJ is going to be a teenager, and we do know that this is a family affair, but how do you think the show will be structured? Are we looking at a cocktail of Smallville and Carnivale? Being something of an armchair magic historian, I’ve long thought the circus and its history to be compelling, but it doesn’t seem like a mainstream choice. Do you see them going from town to town, dealing with local mobsters? I don’t see this on The CW. Fox Family maybe. What’s this show about? Kid doesn’t have any powers. Is he a boy detective? I’m sure he’ll be chasing skirts, because that’s what he does. But are we in for a circus based Veronica Mars or a circus based One Tree Hill?

–Paul

 



From: Conor Kilpatrick
To: Paul Montgomery
Re: The Graysons

Paul,

You know, now that I look at it, there is nothing in the Variety article that mentions the circus but I can’t imagine that they would divert from the foundation of the character like that. I mean, sure, anything is possible but I doubt it. Plus the circus allows for a lot of variety in storytelling since they can either always be traveling or can stay in one place for a certain amount of time. And there would definitely be murders or crimes to solve in each new town.

I have to say that my initial reaction to this news went like this:

– Unimaginable excitement (0.01 seconds)
– Pure, unadulterated terror (About one hour)
– Apprehension (Three hours)
– Cautious optimism (Infinity)

Two things stand out at me. Number one is that the idea of calling Dick Grayson “DJ” makes me want to vomit, even in the cautiously optimistic stage. That’s horribly contrived on so many levels. It’s like when they introduced Aquaman on Smallville and called him “AC” because, apparently, that’s way cooler than “Arthur”. It’s the same thing here. They are afraid of having a main character named “Dick” so they are giving him a nickname that is perceived as cooler by a bunch of development executives. It’s the same idiocy that gave us David Banner, when the idea of a main character named “Bruce” was considered to be possibly too gay. This kind of manufactured “hipness” makes my blood boil.

The other thing that I worry about is that on a show like this age becomes an issue. The description in the article says:

Young DJ will face challenges involving first loves, young rivals and his family as he grows up. Souders and Peterson have come up with an original take on the character.

Which leads me to believe that we’re going to be dealing with a 14-15 (maybe even 16) year old Dick Grayson. If the show is successful and ends up running for 8 years like Smallville then you are going to get to the point that Smallville is at now in which it becomes ridiculous that the graduation to superhero hasn’t happened yet. I realize that it’s a new take and a re-imagining, but when is he going to become Robin? When’s he 25? That’s dumb.

Now that I think about it, I wouldn’t be surprised if there is nothing about the circus in this re-imagining.

Also, you suck.

Conor

 


From: Paul Montgomery
To: Conor Kilpatrick
Re: The Graysons

Conor, you ignorant slut:

…I actually agree with most of your points. I have no real love for this character, but I do like good television. And maybe what I really want is another nine seasons of Carnivale. And nothing really suggests that that’s what we’ll be getting from The Graysons. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to be terrible. It’s too early at this point. All we can really do is speculate about the potential of this pitch.

Since he doesn’t have any powers, and the only real link to the iconic Robin is his family situation, how does this show benefit from the comics heritage? Will we see Bruce Wayne? Will Wayne function as a mentor? How would you set this up if you were given the reigns? Would you go the Smallville route and use characters in a revisionist sort of way? Introducing them much earlier than we’ve seen previously? Who’s the villain?

And speaking of Bruce Wayne, would they even be allowed to use him? He never made it to Smallville. Was that a legal thing or simply a creative choice? I remember it being a rights issue. But if the kid’s got no powers and no Batman, what’s the point of even pursuing this? What’s the Dick Grayson X factor that we’re missing from this equation, and how do the airwaves benefit from it?

–Paul

 



From: Conor Kilpatrick
To: Paul Montgomery
Re: The Graysons

Paul,

You bring up some things that I was thinking about earlier.

Way back when Smallville was announced it was revealed that the network had two scripts to choose from — Smallville and a show called Bruce Wayne (whose pilot script was apparently spectacular, and I’d love to get my hands on it someday). Both shows had the same premise: our main characters in their pre-superhero days. At the time, one of the WB development people said that they ultimately went with Smallville because if you take the suit away from Clark Kent, he’s still Superman. But if you take the Batman persona away from Bruce Wayne you just have a rich kid with a bunch of gadgets. That strikes me as what you have here with The Graysons.

As for using Bruce Wayne, that’s a bit tricky. You’d think that they’d almost have to eventually, right? If they are going to go down that road, they can’t do it without the use of one of the major pieces of the puzzle right? Original Smallville producers Millar and Gough claimed to have always wanted to have Bruce Wayne show up on Smallville, but they were always told no by Warner Bros. With Birds of Prey, Bruce Wayne/Batman was often mentioned and he was even seen in the pilot. So what’s going to happen?

If I was running the show, the main character would be a 12 year old named Dick. The first four seasons would be about life in a traveling circus, as Dick grows up amongst the colorful characters. He would fall in love in every new city, and help someone in trouble. The fourth season would end with Tony Zucco murdering his parents and the fifth would be about him training to become Robin and the show would end when he got the suit. I would probably be fired by the network.

You ask why this show exists? Well, quite clearly the red light is blinking on Smallville and The CW needs something… anything… to fill the void. They already mined eight years out of the Superman world, so they might as well try Batman (again; they’d probably like you to forget that Birds of Prey happened).

I’d like to reiterate that I am not pre-judging the show. One of my biggest pet peeves is something that is common in the geek culture (and in comics in particular), which is tearing something down before it has been seen/read. I’m just saying that the announced choices make me weary. And really, the “DJ” thing is just…. gah!

Conor

 



From: Paul Montgomery
To: Conor Kilpatrick
Re: The Graysons

ConAir:

 
Wouldn’t it be great if he was actually a Disc Jockey too?  
 

–PMoney



From: Conor Kilpatrick
To: Paul Montgomery
Re: The Graysons

P,

You mean like with turntables or for the traveling circus radio station?

I hate you.

I really hope this show is good. I do. I don’t want it to be bad.

I would love a seriously done, well represented live action Dick Grayson. Because as much as I love Burt Ward’s version, the most recent we’ve seen was Chris O’Donnell in the horrid Joel Schumacher Batman films. Sadly, the closest we’ve come is this:

I think someone can do better.

C

 


From: Paul Montgomery
To: Conor Kilpatrick
Re: The Graysons

Sinead O’…Conor:

Maybe this is a conversation for another day, but do you think this is the best possible extension of the Smallville legacy? Why not a Green Arrow series? How do you market “Dick Grayson… you know… Robin… but before he meets Batman. Before the elf booties and the tights”??? If you’re gonna go with a tangental link to the DC universe, why not a Barbara Gordon series? Not Birds of Prey, but young Babs. You can even use DJ as her secretive, ward to a billionaire, underground disc jockey sometimes boyfriend. And Jim Gordon can be there too. Sort of a father and daughter Nancy Drew kind of situation.

…Man, do I miss Veronica Mars.

I’m serious though. I’d much rather see a Barbara Gordon or Batgirl series than a teen Casanova acrobat series.

Feh…..

–PMoney



From Conor Kilpatrick
To: Paul Montgomery
CC: iFanboy Human Resources
Re: The Graysons

I think that we are going to have to add the following question to all future employment applications:

1. Do you like Dick Grayson?

__ Yes

__ No (I do not want to work here)

(HR, please add the above e-mails to the Montgomery file.  Thanks!)

Conor

 

Comments

  1. Potential or not.  We cannot forget the atrocties of Aquaman and Birds of Prey.

  2. My big fear is that this is going to involve a lot of heroics. It should be all circus life, and the life of a young (preferably 10, but I’ll go with 16) acrobat living that sort of life. But when that is what the show is about (which it may not be) there is no sense in putting "DJ" into it. Doing that means your ending is inevitable, or else you face whats killing Smallville. I’d much rather see the story of an anonymous acrobat.

    As Paul said, I just want 9 more seasons of Carnivale. 

  3. It’s going to suck. There. I’m one of those pre-judging nerds.

    I’ve enjoyed 90% of Smallville, I liked the Aquaman pilot, and I’ve even watched a few episodes of Birds of Prey. I’ve seen what they can do with something with potential, and I don’t think this has any.

  4. @Paul – I’m sorry, you’re totally on my list now. Weakest Robin? I just. Those are fighting words.

     In general – this article is fabulous, and Conor pretty much sums up my thoughts on this possible travesty. Especially the name thing. I had enough issues when they switched to calling him Richard in the comics, but… DJ? If they insist on using his initials, couldn’t they use his actual initials? Or use his name. I’d rather another version of Richard than this. 

     The entire premise of this show actually worries me, and Dick is my favorite character ever. Of anything. But he isn’t that interesting before he becomes Robin. It’s what happens to him after his parents’ death and how he copes with it and what he does that defines him. He had a happy childhood! What are they going to do, have him go around running into the Joker as a kid? Have Babs at the circus? (On the other hand, if James Jesse is at the circus I will be happy, because there are only so many in the DCU.)

     If I was doing this show, there would be a season of wacky circus hijinks, with Dick’s parents dying at the end of the first season. And the second season would be all search for revenge, with him being taken in by Bruce at the end.

     Of course, nobody asked me. So instead I will sit here and continue to freak out about it. (And hope that somehow the other Titans are involved. Somehow.)  

  5. Let it be known that I’m not pre-judging. I am in the same state of cautious optimism as Conor. I love Dick Grayson too much to look at this any other way, which is why they made it Dick and not an anonymous acrobat (or disc jockey).

  6. 1.  Paul wins for best use of an SNL quote.

    2.  DJ was the oldest daughter on Full House.  It will now forever be a girl’s name.

    3.  Circuses are awesome.

    4.  The plural of circus should be circi.

  7. I want my X-Men show.

  8. Paul Montgomery (@fuzzytypewriter) says:
  9. Can’t we all just agree that a SPIDER-MAN LOVES MARY JANE show would be perfect for the CW?  

  10. I think I’m most upset about the name "DJ", could’nt they use Richard if they must avoid the name Dick.  I will still watch it, I just don’t know if it can work.

  11. I’m not sure I’ll be watching this show, whatever it is.

    But I would watch that Babs-as-Veronica-Mars show in a heartbeat.

  12. Also, I would totally watch a show where Babs is secretly Veronica Mars. Or Veronica Mars is secretly Babs. That would be fabulous.

  13. I want a Gotham Central series.  That’s all I ask.  And maybe a Sleeper series on HBO.

  14. @Tork A Gotham Central series on HBO would be the greatest thing ever.

  15. Can they throw anymore crap into that Grayson trailer?

  16. So just to clarify the thrust of this show is to take place between when his parents die and before he meets Batman?  Hmmm…Dick Graysons only really interesting to me because he met Batman and when he met Batman.  Could be cool but if this takes off and for whatever reason we have 8 seasons of him not meeting Batman..I think the point here is I hope they learned from Smallville and make Dick:

    a. Not a complete tool-box.

    b. "fly" in his own series early on and meet Bats maybe at the end of the first season or something but make him interesting enough he doesn’t need a gazillion guest stars to remind everyone of how boring and much of a jerk he is. 

     

  17. Paul Montgomery (@fuzzytypewriter) says:

    Kimbo – Almost, but this would also be before his parents’ death.  His mom and dad would be involved, at least for a while.  

     

  18. Paul Montgomery (@fuzzytypewriter) says:

    A couple years ago, I was kicking around the idea of writing a Smallville spec script.  I didn’t want to write for Smallville, but I thought it would be a good idea for a portfolio piece.  The concept I came up with involved the circus rolling into Smallville or Metropolis.  Clark would meet a young married couple named the Graysons and their infant son Dick Grayson.  I figured I could also involve a young Zatanna and her father as well.  Wish school hadn’t gotten in the way.  That could have been a lot of fun.  

  19. The only way I can see this being interesting is if his parents get killed in the pilot, and he goes to Gotham to seek his fortune, and then Batman/Bruce Wayne and the rogues are perennially involved in the background of his everyday life. Also, if he’s going to go by "DJ" because "Dick" is too lame for a main character, shouldn’t he actually be going by "RJ"? I mean, his name is Richard John, not Dick John… Are they really trying to pull off, "well his name is DJ, which is short for Dick John, which is short for Richard John"? Does anyone go by a nickname of a nickname?

  20. I think ‘Gotham Central’ was pitched to a network but after ‘Birds of Prey’ nobody wanted to touch it.  With the success of TDK — and if the ‘Powers’ show happens and goes well — GC might well get another shot.

     

  21. it would be really cool when DJ’s cousin mark grayson visits

  22. Does the involvement of McG move the needle one way or the other for you? Because hearing it makes me put my fingers together like a cross and put it in front of my face to ward off evil.

  23. Sorry conor, I know you hate it when people trash something before it even comes out but…..This is going to suck. No doubts about it, I dont want it to suck; but after seeing the ideas of how this show will work and how it wont…There is just too much reinventing of the character to actually care what this CW show will do.

    Dick Grayson became Robin almost immeditely once his parents died. Okay so he got ‘adopted’ by Wayne and maybe a few more weeks he learned his secret and trained to be Robin. But you get the point that he didnt live his life for a couple of years and then ran into Batman….Unlike Jason Todd who would rather work in this premise for a Robin show then a Dick Grayson show. Jason Tood had an interesting life as a petty criminal before turning into Robin and that would be better as a premise to see his life before he met Bats.

    Hell why not have a Nightwing series? Seriously I would totally stop anything I do and watch Nightwing on TV. He’s got a great life after Batman and you dont have to worry about showing Bruce since Nightwing goes to NYC once he leaves Gotham. So out of the three Robin’s (ignoring Brown) Dick Grayson is probably the worse canidate to have a show about his life before life or after life with Batman.

    I dont see this succeeding. To be honest I want to see that script of the Bruce Wayne show the creators of Smallville had in mind and see that turn into a show and not DJ…and yes calling him DJ is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard in my entire life. Are we in the 1987 again?

  24. I have 3 points to make. They are thus:

    1: I will be shocked if this ever makes it past the pilot.

    2: Birds Of Prey was awesome. Of course it was terrible, but so much so that it was awesome. If anyone calls Birds Of Prey anything other than awesome, it is pistols at dawn my friend.

    3: Grayson is a stunning piece of fan work. For such a small budget, it’s epic, well-made and intriguing. I’ve loved this for ages now.

    (also, mainly for laughs, check out Losing Lois Lane)

  25. Couldn’t they just call him "Rich" or "Richard" if they’re so afraid of calling him dick?  I happen to think either of them would be a great name.

  26. Why not?  I say go for it…….If it really sucks they can always cancel it or I can just not watch……

  27. idk this might or might not be good…i mean i love smallville so idk

  28. Dick Grayson rules, anything with him would be awesome.  That "starter Robin" line is beneath you.

  29. Costs alone would probably preclude using the circus as a backdrop (although when I was a kid I did watch Mickey Dolenz as "Circus Boy.")  I could see them switching it to a family of daredevils.  Not saying this is a good thing just within the network mindset.  

    Even that might not be acceptable to the network.  They’ll want a continuing group of teens according to the description so that means some sort of non-traveling job.  Maybe Hardy Boys detectives meet Extreme Sports.  Of course, that wouldn’t really be Robin at all.

  30. @Eyun-If you believe that Birds of Prey was so terrible it was awesome I’ll go with it but in my opinion it was just terrible.

  31. Personally, I don’t really grasp the thought process of these "superhero’s pre-hero years" pitches.  For one, you’re taking a character and more or less deciding to depict him at a point where nothing very exciting was happening and then try to shoehorn excitement in to keep the show afloat.  Plus, you also have a narrative that must go in a certain direction to connect to the mythos which means you can’t decompress the story because Superman’s got to show up in X number of years or the story begans to look stagnant to where people complain that’s two years out of high school and Clark still pines for Lana. Then, when you do bring the exciting stuff like Zod and Brainiac, it tends to look a little forced or if you bring Clark into the Daily Planet, it looks random and odd ("Isn’t he a college dropout farmhand?"). 

    You’re going to have the same problem with Dick Grayson or Aquaman where all the stuf people want to watch is beyond the expiration date of the series mission statement which will either make for a very short series or one that goes on long after it should have ended like Smallville.  Personally, I think a series with an open-ended future like Gotham Central or The Question or the classic Sandman would be better suited if they’re looking for an easily rights-attainable series that they won’t nlow millions on CGI every episode.

  32. @lantern4life – Oh, it was horrible. No doubt about that. But also so damn awful that it made inexplicably compelling television. For every one thing that was even half-good, there were ten things that were atrocious. And yet I loved it.

    It was my 90210, the show you hate watching but just… can’t… stop…

    And yet while this Grayson series should seem like fodder to someone like me, I can’t help but think it’s gonna be a suckfest. And for me to think that?… Well, that’s saying something.

  33. @OhSoyJu As someone named DJ, who is a guy, I really hate that.  Also, I think the name is awesome.  There should be more characters on TV named DJ.  All of them should be named DJ.  DJ Soprano.  DJ House.  DJ Mackie.  This show will be the best show on TV, if only for the character’s name.

  34. I’m guessing that DJ went the David Banner road because Warner Bros/CW wants a hip/cool name. Rich or Richie makes him sound like he’s either from Happy Days or Richie Rich. Richard just makes him sound stiff and unhip. Dick just invites a whole lotta something else. Mostly jokes, I’m sure.

    I grew up with the Dick Grayson/Robin – and more importantly the Burt Wart AS Dick Grayson/Robin. I’m prejudiced. Jason Todd and Tim Drake may have been/be a lot of things; but Dick Grayson really WAS both Boy and Teen Wonder. Dick formed and led the original Teen Titans; and it has been proven over and over that it was Dick Grayson that moderates and mediates the Titans different individual often conflicting personalities. I’ve read some of Young Justice and Teen Titans with Tim, and he was never fully in the position that Dick was. Of course Dick was never partnered with a Superboy.

    Someone mentioned magic. It would kinda be cool to see Zatara and Zatanna. Maybe Scott Free. Maybe some of the other Titans pre-powers…

    I agree. I can’t see The Graysons going more than five seasons before Dick has to suit up as Robin. 

  35. Zatanna might be a character they could hang a series around herself. She has powers but they’re ill enough defined that they can have her at whatever level they need to for story/budget reasons.

    Make her young and keep her father around as a mentor figure teaching her real and stage magic.

     

    The show would be about her coming into her own, both as a person and a powerful magician.

     

    Plus while she could have a regular location, to satisfy the need for standing sets and continuing characters, she and her father could also go on tour occasionally and encounter other DCU characters. (The Question, The Spectre, maybe even Bruce Wayne)

     

    And the best, most interesting parts of her life are not set boyond the scope of the series.

  36. Zatanna doesn’t mean anything to the population at large.  At least Dick Grayson/Robin is something they can market like they did with Clark Kent in SMALLVILLE.

  37. Paul Montgomery (@fuzzytypewriter) says:

    How do you market Robin before he was Robin though?  Smallville is an easy pitch.  This is a little more complicated.  The name Grayson isn’t the buzz name that Kent is.  So they’re going to have to spell it out.  But how?  

  38. "This is a show about Robin before he becomes Robin.  It’s like Smallville."

    "Okay."

  39. @PaulMontgomery- Before Smallville this would have been a hugely tough sell but they already tried Auqaman off Smallville and it seems like Green Arrow now as well, those two would be harder sells to the public at large than Batman’s sidekick I would think.  

  40. "RJ" makes a lot more sense to me than "DJ."

  41. I agree.

  42. Paul Montgomery (@fuzzytypewriter) says:

    @Conor – So…an announcer comes on and just flat-out says that?  How do you convey that visually and still make it look cool?  How do you do it without leaving the audience asking, "Why not Batman?"  

  43. What about a show on a supervillain’s past?  Maybe something on Ra’s Al Ghul?  You could do a lot of stuff with that.  Heck, one episode could be set in the wild west, the next in today’s time, and the one after that in World War I.  And all the while you learn why he does what he does.  That could be fun, right?

  44. Paul Montgomery (@fuzzytypewriter) says:

    Tork – Two words.  Vandal Savage.  

  45. I thought of him, too, but I figured someone would say he’s too unknown outside the comic book world for anyone to care about so I went with Ra’s since he was the primary foe in Batman Begins.

  46. Who the heck cares about Robin let alone Dick Grayson? Have they exhausted all the main hero stories and are left with sidekicks?

  47. @s1lentslayer – Like it or not, being older than 99% of the characters in comics today, Dick Grayson is a main hero.

  48. And his solo series is in the middle of its 12th year.

  49. It’s already been done in a good way in a cartoon named "Batman Beyond" where Bruce Wayne is old and he needs a new batman to replace him so he gets a guy in school and although he’s the new batman he’s still a sidekick and we got Bruce Wayne out of costume teaching the kid how to be batman and he went to meet old friends.

     

    And a really  cool trailer… it managed to portray Wonder Woman, Superman and Robin in a non ridiculous way…I’m impressed

  50. Take away the fact that he becomes Robin, is a tv show about a kid in a circus a big draw for teenage viewers? I don’t know.

  51. @s1lentslayer – Take away that he becomes Superman, is a TV show about a kid living on a farm a big draw for teenage viewers?

    It’s all in the execution.

    Plus, there’s no circus confirmation. A "total reimagining" could easily jettison the circus angle.

  52. No, but a kid living on a farm with super powers is.

  53. @s1lentslayer – Eh, I’m not convinced that the super powers was the draw.  I think it’s was a confluence of a lot of factors, not the least of which was that the quality of the production was very high.

  54. I kinda of like the circus angle, or you know what, you could have him be the first kid to ever runaway FROM the circus. Wondering the earth and using his acrobat skills to help people in various towns with their various problems that only acrobatics can solve.  

  55. Paul Montgomery (@fuzzytypewriter) says:

    How many episodes can you get out of acrobatic ability in street clothes?  What else does Dick Grayson have to fall back on as a character?  Being a cocky lothario bastard?  

  56. Yes.

  57. @PaulMontgomery – Dick Grayson has never even approached the realm of bastard.  That was Jason Todd.

  58. Paul Montgomery (@fuzzytypewriter) says:

    Never would have needed Jason Todd if Dick weren’t such a traitor.  

  59. Bah?

  60. Listen, I’ve never watched Smallville, does that series have a promised ending of Clark zipping around in full on Superman togs? If so, will Graysons, just all be a prelude to Dick’s parents dying? Wouldn’t it be kind of cool if Dick in was also a bit of a detective? Solving problems that couldn’t be solved via flying trapeze, with his keen detecting skills? And.MAYBE the final season is all about, ‘what with this bruce wayne guy that adopted me?’ 

     

    I can’t even tell if I’m being sarcastic anymore.  

  61. I’m not against this show I just don’t believe in the CW making these superhero shows.  I think I would be more sold if it were "DJ" becoming Nightwing.  Oh here’s an idea how about a Smallville-esque show about the Joker?  The younger years as we watch him plunge into the mouth of madness.

  62. @lantern4life – Shows that center around villains don’t usually last too long on network television.

  63. The Joker, to me, should stay undefined by a past.   If you give him a concrete past, it gives him a humanity and that stymies his frightning nature.  He should be the ambigous villain like Iago or Alex DeLarge so you’re not quite sure what he’s thinking or what he’ll do.

    That being said, I think The Shield shows you can make a very successful show about a near totally immoral character and it be a long-running hit.

  64. @Tork – THE SHIELD isn’t on network television, it’s on cable.

  65. It isn’t?  I don’t have a TV anymore.  I thought it was on Fox.  My bad.

  66. @Tork – It’s on FX

  67. Ah.  Well, I was close.  I just watch what I have it off the web, anyway.

  68. * A Dick Grayson series doesn’t work for exactly the same reason a Bruce Wayne series doesn’t work. No powers, no costume, no reason to give a damn.

    * "Dick" is a terrible (nick)name. I don’t care if it was acceptable in previous years. What the hell’s wrong with Rich or Rick? Nothing at all. There’s a difference between manufactured hipness and plain good taste. 🙂

    (Though I’ll never know why The Incredible Hulk TV show didn’t just go with Robert, since it was a valid option…)

     

     

     

  69. Did Paul seriously call Dick Grayson a bastard? The nerve.

     

    The more I think about this series, the more I can think of how it would work if they take it in a Smallville sort of way. I wish they spared it any vigilante aspects, but I know I won’t be that lucky. Cautiously optimistic. 

  70. I think the fan trailer thingy had the right idea. I would rather see a Nightwing show set after the Batman dies and see him struggling to come to terms with the lose. Or a Green Arrow show would be good. Grayson seems like it may be just Dawsons Creek on tthe road with a bit of detective work thrown in. Hang on, Yeah this sound just like Veronica Mars.

  71. So wait, is the show just about a happy circus family?  Btw, get ready for the most depressing series finale since "MASH."

  72. I’m gonna be optimistic about the show. i love the idea of a show about a young dick grayson and his life growing up in the circus but, who knows if thats what it will even be about. BOP wasnt the best show ever but the batgirl/babs gordon bits were great. and sallville while, i have only watched it on and off since around season 4, has been a fairly strong show though out the years. well, heres hoping for the best.

  73. use a young dick grayson not a 21 year old grayson…take a hint Batman Forever 

  74. Paul Montgomery (@fuzzytypewriter) says:
  75. Thank you!

    Now we dont have to worry if it’ll suck or not. 🙂

  76. TNC, now *that* is a glass-half-full-of-sunshine attitude.

    "Hooray, all the Batbooks are canceled! There will never be a bad issue of Nightwing published again!"

  77. @jimski:….I liked Nightwing, I’m sad to see it get cancelled….