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1. deezer says:

   October 5, 2008 at 10:02 am

   see, I’ve never really associated the Confederate greys with slavery, simply because not everyone in it (Robert E. Lee is an example) was fighting for slavery, most of them just fighting since the Union was invading their homes. Now, if he was carrying the Confederate stars and bars, that’s another story entirely – that’s more of a swastika-esque symbol (at least in my eyes)

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2. SixGun says:

   October 5, 2008 at 11:42 am

   @deezer

   Excellent point

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3. John42 says:

   October 5, 2008 at 5:17 pm

   @deezer

   see, I think that slavery is so huge that it can’t be disassociated, and it bothers me how often it is when the South is romaticized. Okay, maybe they didn’t believe they were fighting for slavery (even if, like Lee, they owned slaves) but, objectivley, they were. maybe that wasn’t the motivation for their actions but it was the effect of their actions. 

   you’re absolutely right, the stars and bars would be worse. but would we stomach a hero in a WWII German uniform that didn’t have a swastika? There were a lot of German soldiers that had no idea the holocaust was going on. 

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4. deezer says:

   October 6, 2008 at 12:59 am

   I guess I’ve always just seen it differently for that. The reason Germans (Nazis or no) were fighting was because they thought themselves superior (granted, Hitler’s propaganda was a big part of it) to everyone else and had some sort of right to take whatever land they wanted. The confederates didn’t do that (at least, the people I’ve read about). To them, they thought the Federal Government and their boys in blue were trying to take over their way of life (which, unfortunately, included slaves for a SMALL part of the Southern population [mostly the rich]) and wanting to burn everything that stood in their past (especially when Sherman got started). Diff’rnt strokes and all that, I guess. 

   Note: I’m not saying that you’re wrong, since you are after all entitled to your own opinion. I’ve actually never thought of it that way before (the German soldier without a swastika on his uniform and all that). In my head, a Johnny Reb and a German rank-and-file aren’t equal.

   Also, just from a historical standpoint, the Civil War wasn’t fought to free the slaves (at least in the beginning), originally soldiers were called on to enlist to help "put down the rebellion" in the South. Maybe it’s just because I’m a huge Civil War nut that I can dissociate Confederate Greys and slavery and I just have skewed sense of symbolism 🙂

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5. John42 says:

   October 6, 2008 at 5:19 pm

   You’ve got a much more informed, nuanced view of the Civil War than me. I’ve got a generalized, bird’s eye view of it. I think both perspectives are useful. It’s a looking at the trees and looking at the forest thing. I contend a certain thing about a large part of the forest, and you rightly point out that I neglect the diversity of the individual trees.

   I’m not that much of a World War II buff either, but I think that your statement that ‘The reason Germans (Nazis or no) were fighting was because they thought themselves superior’ might be too much of a generalization. Just because an army is so vast and full of so many individuals with their own unique motivations, just like with the South, you can’t assign any one subjective belief to all of them. What you can do is assign an objective effect to their collective actions. And I think that collective action can be symbolized by a uniform. And to me, an admitted layman, that half decade of invasion is trumped by centuries of slavery.

   But you’re absolutely right, and I totally concede the point that there’s a qualitative difference between an invading army and an army defending against invasion. That’s legitimate ground to deny the analogy. 

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6. deezer says:

   October 6, 2008 at 5:29 pm

   You bring up a good point, I think I may have forgotten something, though:

   When I was talking about Germans thinking themselves superior, I wasn’t suggesting that they all thought that was absolutely true, but there was the fact that Hitler was, unfortunately, incredibly persuasive. The current Pope, for example, was in the Hitler Youth, but is most definitely not a Nazi but was – at one point – sort-of affiliated with the Nazi Party. I think the main difference is the leadership: Southern officers were fighting for their home, whereas German officers were fighting for dominance and making that whole thousand year reich thing.

   By the way, I really like this concept of having a discussion like this without people screaming, wanting to kill one another, and claiming the other doesn’t know anything. Good show, sir 

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7. John42 says:

   October 6, 2008 at 6:07 pm

   You’re right on about Hitler’s persuaision. The Pope example is great. I might have joined the Hitler Youth if someone put a gun to my head or told my dad would lose his job if I didn’t.

    And I’ve enjoyed this discussion as well! It genuinely expanded my thought around this issue, and that’s what discussions should do, right? Good show to you as well!

   although I never imagined i’d ever type ‘I might have joined the Hitler Youth’. 

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8. deezer says:

   October 7, 2008 at 11:14 am

   It is kinda funny in retrospect, I can just imagine in a job interview someday "well… on this obscure comic book website you once said you would join the Hitler Youth. Yeah, no job, sorry!"

   You’ve also made my start thinking about something that I’ve learned a lot about in a different way too, gotta love those days 

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