Pick of the Week
What did the
iFanboy
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Size: pages
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Story by Grant Morrison
Art by John Van Fleet
Letters by Todd Klein
Published by DC Comics | $2.99
I am terrified of The Joker.
I can’t tell you the last time I actually thought that. And I don’t mean terrified of The Joker in concept or in the abstract. I mean that as I turned the pages of this comic book I was terrified of the fictional character on those pages. The Joker in Batman #663 is fucking terrifying. That hasn’t happened in a long time. Not since The Killing Joke. Thank god for Grant Morrison. I have always maintained that the best, truest personification of The Joker is when he is at his scariest. If he is going to really be The Batman’s number one adversary, the one person who worries The Batman and keeps him from sleeping, then The Joker has to be bowel-liquifyingly scary. The mere sight of him has to cause your chest to seize and your head to throb. Otherwise, why bother? To me, that’s when The Joker is at his best.
Now, that doesn’t mean that there haven’t been instances of The Joker appearing in enjoyable or entertaining ways where he’s more funny than scary, and that’s fine every now and then. But those portrayals are not truly The Joker in the same way that The Batman who appeared in things like Giffen & DeMatteis’ Justice League wasn’t really The Batman. Sure it made for fun stories, but at the end of the day it’s not nearly as satisfying. It’s a sign of great characters when they can work well in different stylistic and tonal settings.
The more and more you think about it, the more it becomes clear that The Joker and The Batman really are opposite sides of the same coin. Grant Morrison plays with idea of the different personifications of The Joker in this brilliant issue. He puts forth the idea that every so often The Joker adopts a new personality, takes on a new Super Persona and that explains why he’s slightly goofy in some stories and a cold hearted serial killer in others. It’s a great way to fit all of the differing appearances into my head and have them make sense. This is a Joker that is not far off from the appearance he made in Paul Dini’s Detective Comics. That Joker was terrifying too, but in a completely different way. Dini’s Joker was casually homicidal. Completely sociopathic. This Joker is the logical extension — he has snapped and and entered Hannibal Lector in Silence of the Lambs territory, only much, much worse. As I read this book I kept thinking to myself that someone needs to shove this into the hands of Christopher Nolan and David Goyer as they prepare The Dark Knight. The scene where The Joker escapes from his bonds in Arkham Asylum and very coolly walks the halls killing guards on his way to rendezvous with Harley Quinn was phenomenal. It’s in the blurry middle ground between coldly calculating and completely, utterly insane that The Joker should live, and that scene portrayed this idea perfectly.
I can’t remember the last time a regular, non-prestige format book actually seemed worth the cover price. I usually breeze through each issue in a few minutes, trying not to think about the dollar-to-time ratio in comics. But this issue was dense. It demanded your attention with thick blocks of crackling prose. It took longer to read this one issue than all of my others combined. And I wouldn’t have it any other way. If anything requires text rather than word balloons, it’s an examination of The Joker and his twisted psyche. Alan Moore was able to do it with word balloons in The Killing Joke, but he is the rare exception to almost every comic book rule. The art by John Van Fleet was serviceable to the text. It worked better in some instances than in others, but overall it did a good job of providing, at the very least, the visual cues for the text to expand on. In a few instances the design work was brilliant.
This comic is going to be very polarizing. Or perhaps not. Perhaps I am the only one who found the beauty in The Joker’s madness. If that’s the case, I’m good with that. Any book that recalls Morrison’s Arkham Asylum and references (brilliantly) plot points of Moore’s The Killing Joke gets my vote.
Conor Kilpatrick
Big Scottish balls.
conor@ifanboy.com
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Boooooooooooooooooooooo!
My favorite of the week was NextWave. Batman, I was unable to finish.
All me reviews are here:
http://www.revision3.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4003
was that a jimskiboo?
mmmmmm… oatmeal cookie 😉
Sigh… to each his own I guess. My POW is Astonishig X-Men I havnt liked this for awhile because nothing happened, This issue things happened and there was action.
But i havnt picked up all my books yet so this could change.
The batman issue dissapointed, not in the portrayal of the joker,I liked that, not even the art,didn’t mid it that much, but the purple prose Morrison is so fond of. It reminds me of his narration in some of his doom patrol issues but there he was constrained to text boxes. I’m still picking up the book once kubert comes back though.
Im saving batman for tomarow when i have to watch simon birch in my religion class.
Chris is this a high school religion class? or University? Eather way I feel your pain man, I hated those classes
Hmm, interesting pick. There’s a revision3 thread devoted to how bad this issue is. I haven’t read my copy yet. I haven’t been this excited to read a book since Civil War: The Return, which I only bought because people said it sucked. Yes, it did suck, but I was disappointed that it didn’t suck more.
I applaud the pick. This was a compelling, scary story and the ideas about the personalities of the Joker were brilliant. Yes, the prose was certainly purple at times, but I thought it was mostly in the service of the story. Plus I just love that DC did something different, in a flagship title no less – this more than any other reason is why I believe we need Grant Morrison: to shake things up here and there, polarizing and pissing people off along the way. His audacity is good for comics.
I’m with you PV, great pick Conor. This is Morrison doing Noir, doing his own take on the dime-store thrillers of old, and to be honest, He can do it. (He’s no Brubaker though.)
Did anybody else notice that this
John Van Fleet guy drew Batman in the
Batman Begins costume?
I can’t wait to read it. I’ve been waiting for Morrison to come back. Grant other people on Revision don’t like it..
So, Conor, would this be an issue anyone could pick up? Either to start a run or just get a good examination of The Joker?
My personal pick would probably be Astonishing X-Men. Everyone here knows my love for Wolverine and I haven’t seen a better writer for him on any of the X-men books. Whedon just gets him so right. His little exchange with the now named Armor was awesome.
Wolverine: Origins just made me sad until the last 5 pages where it made me fuming mad.
Thunderbolts made me mad too, but in a good way. So pissed off at how they manipulated the media. I’m glad I’ve started picking it up.
Simon Birch was funny
The book, A Prayer for Owen Meany, is much, much better though.
I haven’t been reading Batman for long while, is the consensus that this is a good jumping on issue?
Thunderbolts is starting to annoy me. I’m finding it hard to imagine that the events of Civil War #7 can so turn the general population against anti-reg people that the media would be willing to just jump behind villians who are still obviously villians, despite their ‘reformation’. Obviously they are all going to crack a few issues down the line and there will be a big “ooooh told you so” moment.
Oh, and does anyone else find Green Arrow just not getting any better? I dig the art, but the story is really lame. We’ve spent the past three issues in the same nameless alley. Zzzzzzzz
If this issue of Batman is a good jumping on issue, the next one should be even better. As I understand it, next issue will have a gatefold cover by Jim Lee featuring every major character in the book’s history, and then when you open it it’s filled with nothing but Batman’s favorite recipes. Bat-nana bread, apple brown batty… Morrison is just so brave, doing something different like that, by which I mean different than a comic book.
ouch
For those who don’t pick up Batman, what Jimski is referring to is the fact that this issue of Batman is more like a novellawith pictures that accompany it than a comic book.
I haven’t read it yet. My instant reaction was shock at the pages and pages of prose. I flipped through it just to assure myself that it didn’t become a regular comic book at some point in the issue.
Then I set it aside for reading later. It was both too long to read in the time I had and looked difficult to read based on the type-setting and text color choices (yes, like Augie these things matter to me).
So I don’t know if this is truly a good jumping on point. It sure the hell isn’t like any of the other Batman issues in Morrison’s run so far. And while I can’t say whether or not it worked for this issue or not because I haven’t read it, I can say that if this format were to continue, I would quickly drop the book.
My POW would have been Astonishing X-Men as well.
Haven’t read the Batman yet, but I certainly dig the art (what little there is), reminds me of arkham asylum.
I’m having a hard time with Thunderbolts, I mean Bullseye is kick-ass, and ellis writes him well, BUT am I supposed to be cheering for these guys?
Shouldn’t I want them to win? I’m no Jack Flag fan but damn I wanted him to get away.
I haven’t read Thunderbolts before ellis, was it always this ambiguous?
“This comic is going to be very polarizing. Or perhaps not.”
I think you got the answer to that one, Conor. I can’t wait to hear the discussion on the podcast. I expect it to be lively…
“HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA”
(I love the Joker, the very scary version)
I think you got the answer to that one, Conor.
Well, only one or two people are coming out on my side, publically at least, so it’s not very polarizing at the moment. Everyone’s on the other side.
When I sat down on the toilet this morning and opened up Batman #663, I thought, “okay, can’t finish this in one sitting.” I had this last in my stack, and I still haven’t read last week’s books (including the last p.o.w., Shazam) but I bumped it up to the second spot behind Astonishing after I’d heard how awful this was. I must say I was pleasantly surprised. Morrison’s prose is delightfully twisted without being obtuse as I expected it to be, given his penchant for sometimes devolving into nonsense. I’ve only read half of the issue, but so far I’m very pleasantly surprised. It’s a terrific plot and the prose gimmick works. I applaud this POW!
Reading this issue makes me wonder why the Big Two don’t try to dip their heels more into novels. I understand they dabble in it, but very rarely do they put out a high-profile novel featuring comic book characters. I seem to recall a Batman novel years ago by Andrew Vachs that got some mainstream press. There’s a lot of untapped potential there. Could we be seeing the future of comic book characters? Who among us wouldn’t want to see an X-Men novel written by Steven King?
Crap, now I’m gonna have to read it. I picked it up, and flipped through it, and just thought, “I don’t have time for this.” That isn’t to say I thought it would be bad. It just made me tired to look at.
Whoah–read the stuff at rev3 about Batman…damn.
As for Thunderbolts. I did read it before this and it was different. Thunderbolts beforehand seemed more about a group of people who had done wrong in the past but really seemed like they were trying to do the right thing, although I it seems one can never trust Baron Zemo…once a fascist always a fascist I suppose…anyway, this is not to say Thunderbolts was “better” before this, hardly. If thunderbolts represents the way the world has become post-registration/civil war, then the country has turned into an evil corrupted police state obsessed with toys. Seriously, is every issue of T-bolts going to make some meta-story comment about licensing the heros? Lame. Nextwave is much better than this. probably going to drop T-bolts.
Hmmm. Thunderbolts… hmmm.
I’m not sure what to think about Thunderbolts at this point. The characters I think I’m supposed to care about are divided between masked ciphers I literally know nothing about yet and characters I know and actively want to see fail. They don’t really say anything other than “okay” or “KILLLL!” On the other side, there’s the actual relatable, sympathetic character, who the author sets up as the hero and then destroys cruelly. (Maybe this is Ellis’ way of working out his feelings towards the “underwear perverts,” and it’s destined to be a PG-13 “The Boys.” Time will tell.)
It’s interesting; it seems fairly well done; I just don’t know if it’s doing well something I want to see done on a monthly basis. So far it’s like a serious, evil Nextwave. I look forward to an issue where a couple of the characters have some dialogue, so at the very least I can figure out who the **** the Swordsman is and why I should care about him.
Yeah, this went to the bottom of the pile just by virtue of the fact that it’s clearly going to have half an hour to read, and I could (sadly) have most of the rest of my books from the week read in that time.
“Crap, now I’m gonna have to read it. I picked it up, and flipped through it, and just thought, “I don’t have time for this.” That isn’t to say I thought it would be bad. It just made me tired to look at.”
“Once they loved you Batman, NOW everyboy HATES you!
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!”
(sound of exploding whoopee cushion)
Okay, so I re-read the Batman books last night (I’m Jurassicalien on Rev3 if you want to know my initial thoughts) and I will say this, it reads a little, LITTLE better a second time around.
I just feel that this could have been a normal comic book, what I’ve read on line is that Morrison wanted to do this all in one issue and not an arc, so he did prose. I’m not sure if that’s true or not, but I do feel that this could have been done in one issue as a normal comic book. Just look at last weeks Detective from DINI, it’s chalk full of stuff and it’s a comic.
Now maybe it’s because I keep saying “normal” comic book, and that’s not what Morrison wanted, I can respect that, that’s fine, and I agree, his take on the Joker is great, this is a fantastic Joker no doubt about it. If Morrison were to write an actual Bat “Novel” and it had the JOker I’d pick it up with out question.
But for me, the art drove me crazy, CRAZY. It looked like Cut-Scenes from a possible Batman Video Game. I don’t understand why Kubert didn’t or couldn’t do the art. Did they not want him for this style of book, were they going compleatly diffrent? I think putting him on the cover was a mistake, because you then have a compare and contrast, which isn’t fair to the interior artist I admit, but computer art drives me nuts. I just think had it been Kubert art, done in the same “pannel style” and what not, it would have worked better, the book would have worked for some people.
Now I’m not saying I’m going to throw the book out, because it does have some great elements in it for sure. I’m glad I bought it and I do feel I got my 2.99 worth, I really do, which is a great feeling.
So overall, I give it a 7/10. I’m looking forward to next month, when we get Kubert back.
yeah i go to a catholic high school and we were watching the movie for the third day in religion class. I didnt read batman yet because i decided to bust open the first trade for ex machina.
Make it 3 people Conor. This issue wasn’t so bad. And I like it when my comics take awhile to read.
I do not feel loved. My Rev3 topic is gone and so is my post from this morning. Oh well. I wish I had flipped through the book at the store like Josh and then I could have just left it there. But, I was hanging out with my brother, and didn’t want to spend too much time in the shop.
Not a comic. Creepy, computer art. Not for me. Should have been solicited as prose, especially if they were doing something like this in a flagship title like Batman.
Anyways, my pick for this week would be Astonishing X-Men, which was excellent despite the one chubby-Kitty panel. Too bad we have to until May or something until the next issue. New X-Men and Spectacular Spider-Man were both solid this week too.
I also picked up Spider-Man Reign, which I missed last week. It was awesome. I’m not sure if this has been mentioned, but I’m really happy that the Green Goblin is nowhere to be found in this book. He’s not that interesting of a character. The Doc Ock cameo and Venom as the big bad is much more exciting.
I do not feel loved.
I was going to tell you that I love you, but that would be a lie.
Your thread has been merged with Fred’s. Josh posted a thread about starting threads.
For new forum etiquette, check out http://www.revision3.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4014.
Hi hi – long time listener, first time poster. I loved this issue. At the very least, it’s mean, funny, pulp horror. But as a huge Batman fan and a diehard Joker fan, this issue was exciting because as Connor says, Grant Morisson introduces a sort of “unifying theorem” into’s the Joker’s mythology, as well as contributing a surprising new take on the character. I wrote a blog entry on all this last night, and found it hard not to just resort to “GRANT MRSN B-MAN/JOKER SO GOOD OMG1” (I restrained myself). Connor’s review does a great job really laying out how this book (and I do mean BOOK) fits into the conntinuing evolution of the Joker, and shows us new ways to play with a character that’s been around for a looong time and has done a lot of f’ed up s. Looking forward to the podcast.
http://www.geekanerd.blogspot.com/
omg why are people complaining about reading a Batman story that is actually worth the price? what’s wrong with a little spice in the weekly batch?
Hey Jeremy, Please don’t take it personally. We’re still trying to work the bugs out of this forum management thing. It was so much easier when we were the only ones who could post, wasn’t it?
If anything, you helped us figure out how we’d run things from now on. But we would never erase your threads or posts. They’re just in the Fred Review thread. Very sorry for the confusion.
I got no problem with Spice, but someone says I’m going to get a burger and they give me steak…
“I was going to tell you that I love you, but that would be a lie.”
:'( :'( :'(
Don’t worry, I wasn’t angry or anything. Just wondering what happened.
“Make it 3 people Conor. This issue wasn’t so bad. And I like it when my comics take awhile to read.”
“Darn it, just when I had that Batman in my cross hairs, he got his Super Friends to pull his fat out the fire…curses…” –The Joker
“I was going to tell you that I love you, but that would be a lie.”
Okay, I do love you. 🙂
This issue of Batman blew my mind. I kept thinking the same thing as Conor. If the next Batman movie doesn’t reference this…they’ll have blown it. I was at first put off by the prose style, but it was so good I quickly got over it.
I have to both agree and disagree with Conor on this one. I LOVED the Joker in this book. He’s creepy, murderous, and obviously losing it. Morrison almost made his “change” palpable, like you could feel it as if it was happening to you. The part of the book where he has the poison in his mouth is one of the best only because you see just how fucked up the Joker really is. The way he plays with it in his mouth is just sickening, and you could feel the underlying joy that he had in swishing it around.
On the other hand, I HATED the art in the book. The whole time I was reading it, I was yearning for Dave McKean (who collaborated with Morrsion on Arkham Asylum). I think his art would be been better suited for the tone of the book. When I was looking at the art, I kept thinking of that crappy CG cartoon that used to be on Saturday’s…it was called “Reboot” or something like that.
Either way, I think this is a daring pick and I agree with it. This almost touches upon the daringness of Josh’s Fables picks…almost.
Okay, I do love you. 🙂
Yay!
Not to start a whole other debate, but Reboot was an awesome show. Don’t be knocking the Reboot.
“Warning, incoming game.”
Conor, was this the best book you read this week, or another one of you caveat-induced picks?
(cough, Amazing Spiderman, cough.)
Even if it was, I’m totaly with you on the pick, it was a unique book and shows the lengths to which the medium can be stretched.
Oh yeah, reading this convinced me to add Arkham Asylum to my Cart at Amazon, I’m going to check out in the next day or so (still debating on some items.)
Was the Arkham Asylum addition a good one?
Was the Arkham Asylum addition a good one?
For the love of all that is holy (in the world of Batman), buy that book.
“Warning, incoming game.”
God reboot was awsome
Pretty average week in comics for me. Really the only notable thing was that terrible preview in the back of Y: The Last Man. I mean, seriously, whatever that book was . . . it was laughably bad. Vertigo should be scared for itself.
I don’t know about anybody else, but I think this weeks P.O.W. discussion on the podcast could be quite memorable… looking forward to it.
This book was amazing. I do not care it reads like a novel with pictures instead on my “normal” comic books. Overall, the issue took me almost a half hour to read and I paid $2.99 for it. The art was great and used it the right places. The Joker scared the shit outta me. Harley Quinn was used well. I liked the idea of ‘superpersonas’ to explain the different personalities of the Joker. Hell, they could use this one book as the basis for the screenplay of the next Batman movie and I would love it. Overall, the book was the best of the week.
Long time listener, first time poster. I thought Batman 663 was awesome, and certainly ranks among the best Joker stories I’ve ever read. At the very least, it’s really fun, mean, pulp horror. But more than that, as Connor points out, GM gives us a sort of “unifying theorem” of the Joker, and then whips up a new, surprising but completly organic take on the character. I hope this book becomes a touchstone to those who write Joker stories in the future, as I imagine The Killing Joke and Dini’s characterization are.
Also: How awesome was it to read about what it FEELS like to be Joker gassed, in such horrible, horrible detail?
Great review, can’t wait for the podcast.
(a few more thoughts on the issue, for those who care to read them: http://geekanerd.blogspot.com/2007/02/words-words-words-thoughts-on-batman.html)
I’m not sure how I feel about Batman. On one hand it’s a good use of Joker, but on the other hand I think Morrison could have told a great Joker story over four – six issues with better art. Instead he rushed Joker through in a single issue, seemingly just because he felt he had to deal with the Joker but didn’t want to.
The art was also bad. I mean it was good back when I was playing the original Myst, but not in a comic book.
I think I would have gone for Astonishing X-Men. Lots of good character moments, some plot stuff, and overall X-goodness. I dispair for the X-Men franchise after Whedon leaves this book. Then New X-Men will be the best X-Book, and that was quite good this week too.
Is Whedon set to leave Astonishing X-Men soon?
Did I miss 52 this week? or was this the first time it didn’t come out? I thought I read that this is tha last arc that Whedon will be doin going on Astonishing.
tom
cudos on the review conor. simly put, this is ONE of the best single issues of Batman i have ever read.
52 did come out not as good as the past couple of weeks but its moving along nice & good! conor ill make 4!! i loved this issue! i dont mind prose it feels like you get more for your money strangers in paridise has done before & so have many other comics i got no problem w/it. the prose helped set up the mood & let you into the jokers head w/o a bunch of caption boxes filling up each panel. the art was okay & i think kubert should have done the illustrations. & are the people complaining about prose in thier comics the same people that complain about comics being in black & white??? Cassanova #7 was a great book so was justice society of america & nextwave…
“Comic book” is still defined as sequential art, right? Pictures in a sequence so that the pictures tell the story?
I mean, if Grant Morrison wants to write a Joker novel, that’s fine. Sell me a Joker novel. My biggest problem– other than Batman being the worst offline thing I’ve read in a year– is the way everyone keeps calling it a comic book. If Batman 663 is a comic book, then I have a comic book on my kitchen counter that toasts bread.
whedon’s leaving astonishing after 24
the last issue him and cassaday are doing is a double page annual after #24
Tried reading this today. Tough read. Morrison’s work reads like you’ve been on a 3 day bender and add to that the text is printed on pages with a tinted background making it difficult to read at times. Was I the only 1 who felt this way? like you had to struggle to read the text? I respect the effort to try something new, but it didn’t work for me.
It’s not all THAT new. Denny O’Neil did an all-prose Batman story, “Death Strikes at Midnight & Three”, a while back. (Consult “The Greatest Batman Stories Ever Told”.)
And yeah, the art did smack of something cobbled from “Silent Hill 2″‘s cutscenes. What, was Simon Bisley busy or something?
“Was I the only 1 who felt this way? like you had to struggle to read the text?”
No, I definitely felt that way. The entire book was typeset in Futura condensed bold. Everything we know about typography says that condensed bold text is hard to read as body copy.
I finally finished it this morning. I’m not impressed. Conor, I’m afraid you’ve got your bat blinders on this week.
I didn’t feel the story seemed original. Yeah, the Joker is a sick mutha. Nothing new there.
I agree with those who criticism it for not being a comic. I have one more beef on top of that.
Throughout the book, the art was useless. Anything you saw in the art was repeated in the prose. Until the very end when one panel was essential for the reading. When Batman tackles the Joker into the gurney, if you don’t look at the panel, the prose doesn’t tell you what happened.
By the time I reached that point in the story, I was just ignoring the art because it didn’t add anything. I irritated me that they would go the whole issue with the art duplicating the prose and then break that paradigm for a single panel.
So yeah, I think this POW sucked. I’m glad others enjoyed it. This isn’t the first POW that I thought something else was better. This is just the first pick of the week that I disliked.
Have to say I back Conor 100%. And I’m not a DC guy either. Compared to some of the Batman stuff I’ve read over the years, including all that God-awful broken back, Azrael, martial law Gotham crap, this is top of the pops. I loved #663.
Does anyone know if there’s something special planned for 666?
Batman 666:
http://dccomics.com/comics/?cm=7290
awesome.
I wont get most of this weeks comics until next week (comic hole). including Batman. But I have read astonishing and new avengers. I really liked the new avengers this week. I love the electra, hand thing. It’s just very cool to me. I guess thats because I was such a fan of the Wolverine enemy of the state thing and now any reference to that story gets me excited. Like the first part of Irredeemable ant man and that last wolverine what if. I loved all that stuff. I wanna know what happens next in the New Avengers too. But when did spider-man go back to the black costume?
The reason for PP’s return to the black costume has yet to be revealed. This oddly has not stopped them from using it in ancillary titles.
Ron, I think you’d be interested in this: http://www.amazon.com/Fantastic-Four-Omnibus-2-HC/dp/0785124039/sr=8-2/qid=1171847684/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-8439811-7237453?ie=UTF8&s=books
this was one of the worst issues of batman i have ever read. i could hardly finish it. if grant morrison is going to write an issue like that he should just go ahead and write a book because that was not a comic. waste of three bucks
It was such a good day, and then I heard, “For me, a comic is whatever the artist wants it to be.” It– I just– words have definitions.
Actually, I did a one-page prose comic last week about which groceries we needed in the house. I feel I blew the lid off the medium.
Gonna have to just shut my yap and disagree on this one. Nonetheless!, very well-argued defense of the Pick and an excellent episode as always. Odd number of my fellow Missourians attracted to the voicemail all of a sudden.
I’m actually writing a ‘comic’ in mad libs style. Each page has one piece of clip art and a certain number of blanks on it with the part of speech below it.
It’s gonna be hot
Great Show! I agree with Jimski, but also with Conor, but there’s something missing to bring the two views together, sans jokes (but you guys are pretty funny):
Jimski:
“It was such a good day, and then I heard, “For me, a comic is whatever the artist wants it to be.” It– I just– words have definitions.”
Comics, like painting or literature, is art, and can be anything the artist wants it to be, but in the final analysis, it has to be left to the viewer/reader or both, which is the beauty of comics. The audience has to be the ones to decide: “is this any good, is it really art?” NOT the original artist.
So Jimski, your one-page prose comic last week about which groceries you needed in the house could be comics art, but you as creator will not have final word: it will be Jimski the audience, not Jimski the creator, that will make the final decision about that. (Wow, and to think I don’t like conceptual art…)
And good creators are always thinking about their audience, even if they want to create a stir, but if the artist does NOT care about the audience and their enjoyment or reaction beyond just causing a promotional sensation to boost sales or the equivalent of public masturbation, then that’s what you would definitely call “self-indulgent.”
SO, Daniel Way vs. Morrison’s Batman issue, that’s how I would frame the discussion. And fonts do matter, with all those words…
From Wikipedia:
“Comics (or, less commonly, sequential art) is a form of visual art consisting of images which are commonly combined with text, often in the form of speech balloons or image captions. Originally used to illustrate caricatures and to entertain through the use of amusing and trivial stories, it has by now evolved into a literary medium with many subgenres.”
Based on that definition, images combined with text, I’d say batman 663 fit the definition of thw word. But i don’t really care for this definition either because a lot of forms of art don’t fit neatly into any one definition. And it shouldn’t, really.
I think everyone’s pretty much done with the batman talk but i will say that its interesting that a few months ago we were all dumbfounded that some people would think a comic like American Born Chinese couldn’t be considered for a book award becuase it had too many pictures, and today we’re saying that the pick of the week isn’t a comic because it has too many words.
I always thought the core concept behind the definition of “comic” was pictures in sequence that told a story, usually with the help of words. The images telling the story is the basic, bare minimum thing that makes it a comic. That’s why I agree that Batman was the flipside opposite of a “silent” issue; a “silent” issue is a comic, and Batman was the opposite.
Also, Denny O’Neil doing it first doesn’t make it a comic; it just means Denny O’Neil once got DC to print a non-comic, too. (I have great respect for Denny O’Neil; he went to my school, and growing up I always looked to him as evidence that people from my corner of the world could do cool things.)
This has turned out to be a funny way to keep my yap shut and agree to disagree. I have no talent for it.
I didn’t mind the mini-novella approach, I’m fine with it. What really ruined this book was Grant Morrison’s terrible writing. Sorry, make that terrible overwriting. For the life of me I couldn’t understand a damn word he wrote in the entire first chapter. Just terrible. (Almost JLA terrible, but that’s another argument.)
Grant, you’re too cute for your own good. Just write a sentence we can understand, OK?
Face it guys, this guy is a hack. As in, a Dave Kingman hack. Sure, he can hit a titanic home run every once in a while, but more often than not he usually strikes out miserably and looks bad doing it.
St. Paul Doug
“This has turned out to be a funny way to keep my yap shut and agree to disagree. I have no talent for it.”
Jimski, I think this community would suffer without your always compelling, humourous and sure fire insight, keep that yap yapping! Here is where I identify the significant disagreement:
Morrison: Good writer or no? Your taste in writing, or no? In the sense that the pictures may seem in many places to be added almost as “an afterthought” to Morrison’s prose, I lean in Jimski’s direction.
But I applaud the pick as it raised interesting points of discussion. If we all just b****ed about just one favourite character and one particular bad writer month in and month out, this would not be the community we know and care about. Next week, I’m sure we’ll be b****ing about some other book, but loving another.
AND I have noticed all the love thrown at that the latest Astonishing X-Men…
next week back to daniel way
Does anyone know how Mr. Terrific is able to divide his time between Checkmate and the mega-group that is the Justice Society? Is this some sort of One Year Later fallout, because I thought we were past all of that?
He’s also a web designer, a teacher, and a street-level crack dealer
I knew that was going to be the response I got.
I’m nothing if not predictable
Hi… Does anyone know what the batgir llivejournal meme is? Well, if you do I invite you to watch my entry… hope you enjoy it.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/elprofe/393359185/
There’s only 20 minutes to this week’s cast. For me at least.
I think I need to “Pull a True Johnny Blaze” stunt on Batman #663 to figure that thing out in a comics “basement” I found here in Tokyo, here’s what that is:
A small, pitiful, empty place (but very neat and clean) in the basement of a 3 story building that specialises in American toys and figures. Picked up some merch, their comics on tap are 1/2 OK to right on, stuff iFanboys would approve, but 1/2 wtf. Prices are twice to three times U.S. cover prices (they have to insert a special price tag, like a post-it sticky). Basically, I found out new stuff comes out one week after the U.S., #662 in the new release boxes now, #663 due in a few days.
My Johnny Blaze stunt:
I plan on picking up Batman #663 after work, and see how fast I can just stand there in the aisle and read it before either the store closes or the clerk says I can’t do that. I’ll have 15 minutes before closing time, my goal is 10 minutes or under. After I read the entire thing, I will either buy it, or put it back in the very nice and clean display box. Maintaining an illusion of proper behavior in the store will be essential as I want to make them my b****es, and get their buyer reading iFanboy.com (I think the pull list thread can be handled by someone with limited English skills).
As for the stunt (and I will do this for real), Mr. Terrific will be acting as my official bookie, if he has time between saving the world, web designing, teaching Chinese to Vietnamese children, and selling crack. Oh, and pimping. Don’t forget the pimping.
Place your bets. I estimate I can do it in 9 minutes. Basically, a 10 car jump, not too hard.
People are being way to harsh on this last book. I mean, sure, 98% of it was prose, but who cares? I say bravo, Mr. Morrison. Thankyou for being unconventional and trying something off the radar. Damn.
Personally, I am really torn with this book. My instinct reaction was, “Wow. That is a whole lot of text…” but now that I’ve let it simmer for a while, I’m totally pro on this book. Not only did Morrison go out on a limb, but he made the Joker something he hasn’t been in Batman books for a while: A freakin’ maniac.
His exploration of the Joker’s psyche, and his “picking” of his personality was genius. It was such a great way to explain why he’s the goofy “Clown Prince of Crime”, Joker-Fish and all, or the murdering, insane, slaughtering madman. Morrison’s descriptions of the Joker’s fantasies, and crawling through broken windows, and children hiding from him, only to be found, etc. was so successful in making the Joker seem significant when so many writers have been making him goofy and passable.
I didn’t love every part of this book, but any of the Joker writing in here makes it totally worth the $2.99.
P.S. I reallly wasn’t digging the choice for computer art. I thought it used amazing style, though. It would have been perfect if they used all of the same images, just hand-drawn. Maybe someone who handles all of the blacks, and reds, and “rough” look well. Lark? Maleev?
‘Nuff said.
“People are being way to harsh on this last book.”
Zack, if any community is ready for something to test the limits but then judge fairly but in a diverse manner respecting everyone’s opinions, I think this is the one. Maybe I’m wrong, but I bet other sites are flinging some much stinkier garbage at Morrison. I’ll decide after I read the book in the store in a few days, and buy it if I like it. I still intend to do it in under 10 minutes. I read dense graduate student level history books standing up in crowded trains in Tokyo. I’m willing to give it a fair shot (Bang).
What? And use my imagination?
I was deeply disappointed here. Did Morrison club Van Fleet with a stuffed salmon and go wild all by himself?
What a great story! BUT WHY ALL IN PROSE!?! Be mindful of your medium, people!
So, I just listened to the podcast and have things to say about Y the Last Man.
*SPOILERS IF YOU READ IT IN TRADES, THOUGH I HAVE NO IDEA WHY YOU WOULD CAUSE IT READS SO WELL IN THE MONTHLY FORMAT*
I’ve enjoyed the last two issues a lot, and I think a lot of the hate for these issues comes from the fact that no one remembers where these characters came from. So, to clarify:
So, remember the garbage truck super model from the second issue? She was the character that issue #53 revolved around.
Remember the Shakesperean play troupe from the stand alone issue that everyone seemed to hate? These were the women in the latest issue.
I think it’s kind of a cool device to show how much the world they live in has changed, and as a result, how these minor characters – women who aren’t completely wrapped up in the main plot – have changed as a result.
But, you know, this is just to clarify in case anyone just didn’t get these issues. I get the complaints about the series winding down soon and why he’s spending on time on this kind of stuff, but I figure it’s a quiet before the storm kind of thing.
*SPOILERS IF YOU READ IT IN TRADES, THOUGH I HAVE NO IDEA WHY YOU WOULD CAUSE IT READS SO WELL IN THE MONTHLY FORMAT*
Reads pretty awesome in trades too.
I say that because BKV does great cliffhangers that make me go *gasp!* each month.
Monkey feces!
*gasp!*
Kal, I think you misuse the word “hate.”
I’m more confused. And you’re right, I don’t remember anything from the second issue, because that was fucking years ago.
But thanks for the tips. Sometimes these books need primers in the beginning. Not everyone has a giant community of readers to answer his questions about a given comic.
For those complaining about prose in a comic book, can I remind you that Stan Lee got his start by writing the prose fill-in stories for Timely Comics? I haven’t seen this issue of Batman yet, but I’ll tell you this whole deal has got me interested.
In the wake of Mr. Morrison’s Batman #663, I was inspired to draw this: http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/49272473/
It’s obviously a work in progress, but I can’t decide if I should put a wifebeater or sleeves-rolled-up formal shirt or just no shirt at all.
Suggestions appreciated.
Looks good as is – no shirt.
Great stuff!
I like it as is, but for color, I would suggest this — lurid white white white with off white to gray for shading for skin, lurid green and red for hair and lips, and lurid purple for the pants –suspenders? hmmm, there’s the tricky part, but lurid basic color with dark background will make all that red blood stand out nicely — good work….can’t wait to see it as it progresses….
Thanks for the help so far, I’m definitely taking this all into consideration.