As much as we love the pretty pictures and the fantastic storytelling, we’re often reminded that comics is also a business, one that could be seen as fairly unhealthy, especially now that DC failed to have a book sell more than 100,000 copies in February. Some titles came close, but none were over 100k.
UPDATE! Here are Marvel’s sales estimates for February 2007. Thanks to Jimski for the head’s up.
This could be seen as a blip in the trends, like February is a short month, they’re in-between “events”, whatever — I’m sure the suits in the Time Warner building are making tons of excuses. But if you read through Heidi’s blog post, you’ll see some startling numbers of some books that are very, very good and just aren’t selling. In fact a lot of them aren’t selling, and what happens when books sales decline? They get canceled. What happens when an entire line of comics declines in sales? Well, we don’t know exactly.
Don’t worry though, it’s not like DC is going to go out of business. Rather it’s just losing market share to Marvel, very rapidly (For February 2007: Marvel – 42.35%, DC – 32.80%). But these trends swing up and down, and market share comes and goes. I’m sure DC is a healthy business organization and they’re gearing up for the end of 52, and the beginning of Countdown, so maybe this is a blip… or maybe the status quo has changed…
On a side note, it’s not good for a line of comics like Vertigo, when one title doesn’t ship (*cough* Fables *cough*) and that affects the ENTIRE line’s sales for the month… not good at all.
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I was planning on emailing you guys about a similar topic which I think contributes to DC’s problems.
Recently Conor went on a bit of a rant on the podcast about people who say they favor one company or the other.
It struck a cord with me because I recently got back into comics and would have expected based on my earlier reading habits to be more inclined to read DC than Marvel, but have found that I’m actually buying much more Marvel than DC.
I believe it is primarily about the writers. Marvel has several good writers locked into exclusive deals.
The writers that I find myself reading and will try new books from are Bendis, Brubaker, Peter David, Slott, Brian K Vaughn, and Rucka. Whedon also deserves a look. I might throw Jeff Smith and Darwyne Cooke in the mix as well, but they are combo writers and artists so it is a little less clear.
Out of that list above, only Rucka seems to be exclusive to DC; whereas, Bendis, Brubaker, David, Whedon, Slott and Whedon are all DC. I like Dini a lot, but until Countdown, he’s only accounting for one book and on that book he has had a LOT of fill in writers. I love Fables, but Willingham’s work on other titles has been spotty.
Basically, I don’t have any sense of writers for DC that are exclusive and have the consistent quality of Bendis, Brubaker, David or Vaughn with the exception of Rucka. I don’t think Grant Morrison has shown to be up to that level recently.
So my main question is who are the DC-exclusive writers that are the upper-tier, heavy-lifters? Who are the writers that DC has that when they are going to write a book, it is likely to be worthwhile and something to pick up.
When I look at DC loosing market share to Marvel, I believe it has a lot to do with the writers. But I’d love to be corrected and to have some DC authors to look for.
Basically, I don’t have any sense of writers for DC that are exclusive and have the consistent quality of Bendis, Brubaker, David or Vaughn with the exception of Rucka. I don’t think Grant Morrison has shown to be up to that level recently.
Grant Morrison should definitely be mentioned among the likes of Bendis, Brubaker, and Vaughan. He’s certainly ahead of Peter David.
DC should kill off Superman again to spike sales–or they could have a huge crossover event…
I try to avoid sales charts. It only depresses me when titles I buy sell poorly.
Recently Conor went on a bit of a rant on the podcast about people who say they favor one company or the other.
I was talking about people who blindly buy one company’s books rather than the other’s simply because of the company name and regardless of the content.
I believe it is primarily about the writers. Marvel has several good writers locked into exclusive deals.
I think you’re absolutely right, right now it’s all about the writers that are signed with Marvel. Plus the fact that, for the most part, the big three relaunches (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman) fell flat on their faces with high profile creator delays.
There’s not a question that a majority of the “big names” are at Marvel right now. But that doesn’t excuse a great book like Robin selling so poorly. Or Checkmate (which is Rucka). Or The Spirit (which is Darwyn Cooke). Or Jonah Hex. These are all fantastic books and if we’re at the point in comics where only five or six names can sell books then this industry is in big trouble, no matter which company those names work for.
The 52 Four are pretty big “names,” aren’t they? I’ve always thought of them as such. Ditto for Vertigo/Wildstorm darling Brian K. Vaughan. And Frank Miller technically still works there. I don’t think it’s strictly a matter of marquee talent. And the characters don’t get much more iconic. Hrmmm.
I’m reading some DC but mostly marvel and what I cite as my reason is this DC has some great characters and they are many of them very iconic but thats the problem. I can’t get into a Superman book because he’s hard for me to relate to such a god like character. The number of powers that he has and how he can use them could fill a book. I realize many Marvel characters have a variety of powers and uses for them but at the end of the day Spider-Man gets the crap beaten out of him and often it seems that he can’t keep his rent. The Marvel characters seem more human to me they have flaws they are more easily relatable. I honestly see characters like Spider-man as greater heroes because they have these vulnerablilities and still fight the good fight. I’m not sure this is the greatest place to put this down and maybe someone will prove me wrong but that is just my feeling.
This is a revelation to me. I always imagined the nubers for most issues to be in the 100s of thousands, not 30-100k, or less in some cases. Wow.
Well before I say anything else I should say this. There will always be a need for Superman and Batman in this world, no matter what the sales say. These heroes are so iconic that there is no way you characters will ever go away or the demand for them will decline.
However, like grigs said it’s the writers. The only books I buy from DC monthly since getting back into comics a couple years ago are The Spirit and JSA which are pretty new titles and fables which I buy in trade, hell I’m only reading Batman at the moment because Morrison is on it. Why should I read a book if I know it’s going to be bad, that fill in arc for Morrison or example was horrible!
It was a no-name writer or artist that I knew nothing about and I would not normally read it which is what most of the DC books are like.
Almost every week on the pull list people are getting more Marvel books then DC books, it’s a common thing that’s been going on for a while I read more ongoing Marvel books because that’s where the talent is and that’s where the talent staying.
I just recently started buying DC books and sometimes I’m completely lost, like Flash for example, how many Flashes have there been and why do all their names sound the same? What the hell is wrong with the Green Latern book? What the hell was up with this months Action Comics? They set up a big cliffhanger on last months issue and then have a Jonathan Kent flashback on this issue! I thought he was dead!! While Marvel also has all of this baggage attached to it they are more appealing to the non-hardcore comic book crowd.
By the way I’m loving a a few DC books, JSA, Robin, Detective, All Star Superman (kinda)
And another thing whenever I dont know a character or something that happened to character I just go on Marvel.com and look him up they have all the info and stuff and its really easy to find. The DC site sucks!!!!!
Does anybody know WHY DC has been experiencing these publishing delays? The core writers they have on some of these books– Dini, Morrison, Busiek, etc.– are actually quite good, when they get them out. But it kills a book when some other writer comes in for a fill-in issue or even arc– in some cases (Action Comics) right in the middle of an ongoing story.
I’d be tempted to blame this on all the “Hollywood types” being used as writers, but that can’t explain all of it here. That might explain the situation with Detective Comics (and Paul Dini), but it wouldn’t explain some of these other books.
By no means am I an expert but after carefully reading the story and looking at the numbers (something I do everyday in a different industry) I just thought I’d chime in.
I think there are a couple things happening here. However, I am going to take a different standpoint though and really approach this as a business. Businesses often have to make tough decisions and I think that is what DC needs to do. The first thing I see is that I believe DC is spreading itself way too thin. They have a bunch of titles – some work, some don’t. I think they really need to focus in on what is working and pump that more. I hate to say they need to cut things but, from a business standpoint, if the book isn’t selling, you get 5 issues to shape up or its gone. It gives the writer enough to get through one arc or 2 small arcs. I didn’t even know what Johnny DC was until I read this but can we not cut some of the fat here. I mean if a book for a major comic publisher is only selling 4,000 copies, how is the book staying afloat? Also, they could re-launch Johnny DC and call it something less sexist, it would gain press at least.
Next is Wildstorm. I don’t even know what’s going on here. I mean I don’t see why they couldn’t move some of the better titles to Vertigo (Ex Machina, etc.) and just cut this imprint loose. It just seems like a drain to DC right now. They have very declining sales and I haven’t heard a ton of raves about any WS books in a while. I would imagine that DC is pumping some money into this imprint. I don’t think that the readers are falling out of their chairs with the awesomeness that is Wildstorm. It is high time they start making the return on their investment.
So my first point to DC is slim down your line. Cut the fat that isn’t doing well. Which leads into my second point to DC…focus on the good things, the iconic things.
DC has the benefit of having many, many pop culture icons on its roster. I think they really need to make more of concerted effort to just put out better product. Whether its the art, the writing, the relatability, there is a reason why DC books aren’t selling. Look at what is doing well. DC has a lot of things going for it. If Martian Manhunter or Supergirl aren’t doing well, you have options. But don’t keep putting out the same crappy books for years. I don’t mean to be harsh about it but a world class company should be just that…world class. Hell, get a HUGE name a Frank Miller or someone to do a run on a comic there. Not necessarily Batman but what if he did Nightwing or even the Flash. That would be huge and hopefully get some reader to start flocking to more DC titles.
Well, I think I have said enough. I hope that this gives a different perspective on all of this. I would love to hear what everyone has to say.
Thanks,
Steve
I would buy Frank Millers Nightwing in a heartbeat!!!!!
First of all, it’s Marc-Oliver Frisch’s blog post, not Hedi’s.
I think people look too much into these lists. They are not sales lists, but order lists. Books that retailers ordered from Diamond a couple of months ago.
I think the beginning of Dark Tower and the end of Civil War put a strain on many retailers. With Dark Tower, they had to order this book not only for existing comic book customers, but for King fans that may have never walked into their store before. They had to order enough books for an unknown customer. If you took Dark Tower out off this list, I’m sure retailers would have ordered more DC Books. You also have to consider the impact Civil War #7 had on ordering for February. Marvel placed the burden on retailers of ordering both the beginning and the end of two very much hyped miniseries. I wonder if this was done on purpose. Marvel delayed the release of Dark Tower. Was it to coincide with the end of Civil War? I cannot count how many times the end of Civil War was pushed back.
It’s not like Marvel can publish Dark Tower Gunslinger Born #1 and Civil War #7 each and every month.
These sales lists don
Seeing sales numbers really makes one wonder how the industry stays afloat at all really.
Granted, the last time I really looked at sales figures was probably in the 90s which was obscenely inflated. Still, 30k being a decent selling title just seems so odd. That is nothing really…
I’d really love to see a monetary breakdown on a decent title as to what creators make, the pulisher keeps, how much is pulled in via ads, cover price, etc…
The industry stays afloat by way of forcing aspiring and veteran artists, writers, inkers, colorers and the like into slave labor through which each person must fulfill multiple comics per month in order to pay their prison rent and be graciously given bread crumbs and water, if they do not, they are forced into solitary confinement, where it is said that they grow shorter with each late title
Man, thoes Johnny DC titles sell bad. Why bother? I mean really. Unless this is only taking in consideration direct sales and those sell better on newstands, but man.
If you look at the charts though, minus a FEW exceptions, everything is selling better than it did in 2004, which is good right?
Also, Wildstorm’s horror line, I thought those were always supposed to be limited series?
Boy this is a depressing (yet realistic) thread. I agree that DC has too many imprints cooking at once, Vertigo, WS, the Johny DC thing, the Minx line now.
Weren’t we all saying the Marvel was shitting the bed with Civil War being late and the storylines of most of their major titles suffering for it?
I was soooo impressed with DC’s buildup to Infinite Crisis and the actual mini series itself and 52 has been fantastic.
But I still can’t believe they have so badly dropped the ball on Wonder Woman, Flash, the “AllStar” Batman mess with Miller/Lee, the Donner Superman arc, the mediocre reviews (being kind here) for JLA, and the small number of GL issues. THe marketing and PR focus has been squarely behind the big names and those high profile gigs, which as caused great books like Robin, Teen Titans, Jonah Hex, Birds of Prey and Manhunter to have to go out and find their audience, as opposed to having an audience driven to them.
I’m sure those sales numbers will change, but I really hope it occurs due to good business/marketing practices and great story telling, and not the next big event.
I realize many Marvel characters have a variety of powers and uses for them but at the end of the day Spider-Man gets the crap beaten out of him and often it seems that he can’t keep his rent. The Marvel characters seem more human to me they have flaws they are more easily relatable.
Unless you’re talking about Ultimate Spider-Man, that hasn’t been true in many years. Peter Parker married a supdermodel/actress, not exactly hurting for rent money there. Nor relatable for most people.
I just recently started buying DC books and sometimes I’m completely lost, like Flash for example, how many Flashes have there been and why do all their names sound the same?
Four. Two of the names are somewhat similar because they are related.
What the hell is wrong with the Green Latern book?
Nothing, it was great this month.
What the hell was up with this months Action Comics? They set up a big cliffhanger on last months issue and then have a Jonathan Kent flashback on this issue!
This has been the biggest problem – Hollywood delays.
I thought he was dead!!
He hasn’t been dead for at least ten years.
While Marvel also has all of this baggage attached to it they are more appealing to the non-hardcore comic book crowd.
How do you figure?
In reading through the thread, I was struck by some other differences between the writers at DC and Marvel. It seems like the good writers at Marvel are putting out more books more frequently and on the bigger titles.
For example, we have Brubaker writing Daredevil, Captain America, The Immortal Iron Fist, Uncanny X-Men, and Criminal. Plus he wrote the best one-shot during Civil War.
Bendis has Ultimate Spiderman, Mighty and New Avengers, Ilumanti, Powers, and soon Spider Woman and Halo.
By comparison, Rucka is working on 52 and Checkmate. Cooke is on Spirit and Superman Confidential. Beechan has only been writing Robin (and soon Countdown and Teen Titans).
This brings up two thoughts for me:
1. The best writers at Marvel are on some of their better known properties (Spider-man, Avengers, Daredevil). Rucka is writing Checkmate. Waid is writing Legion. Morrison has Batman and Superman Confidential which are the exceptions to the rule that the best writers at DC are working on lesser known properties.
2. The best writers are Marvel are producing more books on a regular basis. Maybe this is the price DC pays for having four of its best writers locked into a single title for a full year.
Beechen’s day job is producing a cartoon and can only handle two books (Robin & Countdown, soon to be Teen Titans & Countdown)
Rucka is writing the equivalent of five books a month (52, every week & Checkmate)
Cooke is also drawing The Spirit.
Oh, one other thought… I can’t remember the last time one of the Marvel titles had a momentum killing fill-in writer. Frankly, with the number of fill-in arcs in Batman and Detective, it is hard to declare Dini and Morrison the “regular” writers.
You know, I think I’d be more interested to see the numbers from what peole buy at the store instead of what retailers order. Just because a retailer orders something doesn’t mean that it will sell. Take Civil War for example: At my LCS, they still have about 100 copies a piece of Civil War 6 and 7 while most of their DC titles sell out or leave only a couple issues.
I think the main thing to glean from these numbers is that this is the retailer predicting what WILL sell, not what necessarily DOES sell well.
I looked at that list yesterday and it depressed me greatly. Why bother publishing anything? Sales are guaranteed to go down every month across the board. There are the occasional exceptions — Y, WALKING DEAD — but 99% of comics lose sales from month to month. Maybe the trades make up for it, but why bother with this roller coaster of shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic by just putting a new creative team in place every now and then for a temporary one or two month sales bump?
Depressing.
Sorry Neb,
I’m pretty sure these are ACTUAL sales numbers, which is why they are a few weeks behind. Diamond shows the retailer orders in it’s magazine as well as Wizard.
You know, I think I’d be more interested to see the numbers from what peole buy at the store instead of what retailers order. Just because a retailer orders something doesn’t mean that it will sell. Take Civil War for example: At my LCS, they still have about 100 copies a piece of Civil War 6 and 7 while most of their DC titles sell out or leave only a couple issues.
I think the main thing to glean from these numbers is that this is the retailer predicting what WILL sell, not what necessarily DOES sell well.
Except that what the retailers actually sell is almost irrelevant to the conversation. The comic book companies sell to the stores. Those are their customers. If they sell 100,000 issues of title X to a store and 80,000 go unsold, the comic company still sold 100,000 issues. The retailers take the bath. That’s why those constant press releases from the companies about sold out books are so dumb. They are sold out TO the stores, not IN the stores.
Now, books that don’t sell at the stores will effect how those stores order future issues, so it’s not entirely irrelevant.
Oh, one other thought… I can’t remember the last time one of the Marvel titles had a momentum killing fill-in writer. Frankly, with the number of fill-in arcs in Batman and Detective, it is hard to declare Dini and Morrison the “regular” writers.
That’s because Marvel and DC have different ideas on what to do with late creative teams. DC chooses to utilize a fill-in, and Marvel just doesn’t release the book until the original creative team is done. I can’t say what the better method is, but both ways pretty much kill momentum equally. Ultimates,Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk, Civil War, and to a lesser extent Astonishing X-Men. these are all books that have their momentum killed because of scheduling, and that has nothing to do with a fill-in artist.
Sorry Neb,
…or, I”m totally wrong and I”m going back to bed. 🙂
It’s probably worth including the Marvel numbers as well, which I found a lot less depressing when I read them:
http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/03/29/marvel-month-to-month-sales-february-2007/#more-2143
I realize these are meant to represent retailer orders rather than reader purchases, but the fact that stores are only ordering 13,000 copies of Invincible doesn’t exactly cheer me up.
I looked at the article, looked at the figures, but got really interested, as I always do in the disclaimers. I also love going over political polls, which many people (like CNN anchors) usually get wrong. They like the zippy headlines. Disclaimers are a good thing to read when the person posting the information uses different descriptive adjectives to describe books the sales of books with roughly the same performance, and is a little too liberal with judging sales by means of the “average number.” I’m not saying these figures are no good, I’m saying they’re about 30% of the pie, hardly a full picture. More a fleeting snapshot.
This is the disclaimer included in the link for this thread:
“Bear in mind that the figures measure sales to retailers, not customers. ”
That means that if you could not find an issue you were looking for? Your retailer did not order enough copies, because they decided you weren’t interested in it. If you saw lots of copies of a CW on a shelf you didn’t buy (like “The Return”), that means your retailer thought you had lots of interest in it. This link does also does not include TRADE sales. I would like somebody to post a link to trade sales figures. Compare that to monthly titles, and it is a completely different story altogether. It’s like looking at two completely different people.
How about this as a business model for the music industry: All bands only put out one song a month. Stores then have to decide which of those one song CDs from which band to buy in bulk. Then, 4-6 months after the seventh song comes out, they release the entire album, but in a “special DVD with video” package, and then you have to wait 1-2 more months to just get the collection of 7 songs (That’s a little over one year after the first song of a thing we’ll call “an album” comes out).
Then the music industry wonders why they are doing so poorly. Maybe this is a clumsy metaphor, but I’m just trying to think outside the bag and board here.
So can we see a comparison of sales of monthly titles vs. trades? Profits from both go into the same corporate profit box, after all, don’t they? Also, these numbers, as noted by somebody else, go up and down, up and down. Two months ago, Marvels profitablity was rated at 5% or lower. Now it’s up to 16%. Check back in two months, and you could see those trends reversed.
However, it is true that Mavel has grabbed many of the good writers, to write UPCOMING MONTHLY titles. DC has quite a bit of work by those same writers in the TRADE CATALOG (if they release those trades in a timely manner and keep them available is a different story).
Also, somebody mentioned Sandman TPB #3, now going for about $80.00 from 3rd party dealers. I was lucky: I got the last copy from Amazon UK for cover price a month ago. Will that be restocked? Where is that in the sales figures?
And merchandising? Where are those numbers? Marvel was just sounding dire warnings about falling into a sinkhole because Spiderman 2 profits were running out:
http://movies.msn.com/movies/article.aspx?news=206674
Now it’s back in the black? (look at numbers indicating profit and sales growth, marked in red, that’s usually your real indicator):
http://moneycentral.msn.com/detail/stock_quote?Symbol=MVL
Now rated as a “hold,” that means MVL shares are not in danger of falling like a turd, but not really that great to have, but you won’t get a good price if you try and sell, which means it’s not a share you want to buy.
So, now that I’ve done all homework, can I see those figures on TRADE sales now? And how about my suggestion about moving the music industry to the “one song a month, one album a year” idea? Any takers?
Personally, I am reading more DC books than at any other point in my comic-reading life. There’s no denying the recent screw-ups on the business end, especially recently with their biggest titles. Part of why this month in question looks so bad is because of what didn’t shop. And at the end of the day, they seem to lag behind Marvel in two important areas – marketing their books and getting their trades and collections out.
Isn’t this mostly about Didio not doing as good as job as Joe Q? Or, put more directly, if Joe Q were running DC, would we be having this discussion?
OOOPs, made an error above, edit:
“Also, somebody mentioned STARMAN – TPB #3, now going for about $80.00 from 3rd party dealers. I was lucky: I got the last copy from Amazon UK for cover price a month ago. Will that be restocked? Where is that in the sales figures?”
PV said:
“And at the end of the day, they seem to lag behind Marvel in two important areas – marketing their books and getting their trades and collections out.”
Agree:
1) Marvel marketing their books well
Disagree:
2) BOTH doing badly getting their trades and collections out.
Didio vs. Joe Q, Joe doing better? Look at the numbers in 3-6 months, and someone will make the opposite argument, and have the number to back it up.
Actually, the “Didio vs. Joe Q.” statement is rather a red herring. Neither really run the business and distribution end of either company. Joe Q. blogs much, but…actual profitablity in real terms? Wall Street does not share your view.
SO where are my Trade Sales figures? And how about my idea for the music industry? One song a month, one album a year, and if you say, “hey that’s an interesting song, can I get their previous three songs, and about a full album?”
“Check back with us in a year.”
The real issue is sales GROWTH, not decline. If you stick to a business model that only considers one part of the market (diehard fans that go to the store every week) you are obviously clinging to an aging customer base that may or may not keep up their buying habits.
For sales GROWTH you need NEW readers, and… well, I think I’ve already made my point on that one. “Oh, does that seem interesting? Want to get into comics? Well wait 6 months to a year to pick up the book to know what the hell is going on, come on back, and maybe we’ll have somthing to keep you hooked even though we never hooked you in the first place…but really, all we care about is who we have hooked now…”
To grow sales, you have to get new readers, PERIOD.
The current business model MUST change, or just be happy with who is around now.
Conor,
You provide a good point and maybe my view was too narrow. I guess, I’m more interested in seeig the percentage of books that the retailers then eventually sell. On a percentage basis, are they left with more Marvel or DC? That’s what I think would be interesting to see, although I’m sure it may only speak to a small portion of the bigger picture.
As a consumer, I usually base my judgement of what sells and doesn’t by what’s left at the LCS, which I know isn’t very mathematical. But when I see that gigantor stack of Civil War in my shop, I can’t help but think, “Man, did they really eat it on that one…”
I would hope that our dollar speaks to our shop, so that they will continue to order what people think is good.
Overall though, I would like to think that despite what we consider crappy sales is still considered an upward trend for the industry.
The 13K for Invincible is a misleading figure. I bet that book sells just as much, if not more of its books via trades. If they weren’ selling well, there’s no chance Image would take the risk on putting out that $100+ giant hardcover.
These numbers are incomplete, just in the way that box office numbers from the first weekend do no reflect the profitability of a given film. I’ll use the example of Office Space, which didn’t even get a chance in the theater, but on DVD, is one of the most profitable movies they’ve got over the long haul.
Conor told me that story, so if it’s wrong, blame him.
Granted, many of these DC books don’t end up going to trade, so it’s hard to say.
Disagree:
2) BOTH doing badly getting their trades and collections out.
Maybe both companies could do better, and get them out there faster, but Marvel is much more reliable than DC (not incl Vertigo here) in terms of if and when they will come out.
And here’s a great example of where their failure at both marketing and collections converges – interest in The Question has prolly never been higher, yet where is the Showcase volume? Or an Omnibus HC? As far as I can tell, they’ve never reprinted the classic Ditko/ O’Neill material and their best window to do so is closing. That’s poor. And if the buck doesn’t stop with the E-i-C, what’s the point in having one?
And if the buck doesn’t stop with the E-i-C, what’s the point in having one?
Your issues really lie more with the publisher. He’s a less public face than the EIC, but he’s really in charge of book publishing, especially when it comes to back issues. The EIC is about steering the ship editorially, controlling stories, getting talent, managing the editors, etc.
Dan Buckley at Marvel is a great publisher and their trade programs have been fantastic. I think the guy at DC is Bob Wayne, who hasn’t quite caught up in pace to Marvel I think.
But while neither Quesada or Didio are powerless in this area, it’s not all their game.
Josh, isn’t it Kirkman that’s taking the risk putting out Invincible in a pricey hardbound and not Image? Since everything Image publishes is creator owned, I think it’s the individual creators that are taking the risks and not necessarily Image.
My mind keeps returning to something my accountant father said to me years ago, perhaps the only thing he’s ever said that stuck with me, the poor soul:
“Torture the numbers enough, and they will confess to anything.”
Wasn’t that the motto during The Inquisition?
Josh, isn’t it Kirkman that’s taking the risk putting out Invincible in a pricey hardbound and not Image? Since everything Image publishes is creator owned, I think it’s the individual creators that are taking the risks and not necessarily Image.
I honestly don’t know for sure, but it’s a joint business venture, and I’m fairly certain that the upfront money still comes from Image. If they had no risk, that would be an amazing business model.
I think it works more like a record company.
Connor I think that Marvel is more appealing to the non-hardcore (teens, new to comics) comic book readers because the DC characters that everyone knows are Superman, Batman, Wonderwoma, Green Lantern and Aquaman. Superman is not a character that really appeals to my generation because he is well SUPERman he has every power imaginable and hes a boyscout, plus people still see Superman and go comic books are for kids.
BAtman I like and have no complaints.
Wonderwoman I never read so I can’t complain.
Green Lantern is a very difficult to get into because of the comlpicated story, at can be very intimidating for new readers.
Aquaman people think “Wow he can talk to fish. stupid power!”
This si not my opinion but the conclusion I have come to when talking to my non comic book reading friends, but when they pick up USM or even the Civil War issues they like it, if their confused about something most of the time a simple explanation will do and they get it!!!
That’s all anecdotal.
In regard to publisher sales to stores vs. store sales to customers, retail stores do have the ability to return unsold merchandise in some, if not all, cases. My guy was talking about this just last week. The stores tear off the covers and send them back. I don’t know if it’s a full refund, credit toward future purchases, or what exactly, but they do get something back.
This is funny. It barely lost ANY sales. People really go for quality.
ULTIMATES
02/02 #2 – 107,342
02/03 #9 – 101,490
02/04
I don’t know what that means Conor!
I’m still in High School
I don’t know what that means Conor!
I’m still in High School
That means that what you say may well be true for you and your friends but you cannot extrapolate that to all teenagers.
Oh, I like DC, I ‘m picking up several trades and I really like it,I’m trying to learn more about the important events and things that had happened in the DC universe. I’m just saying that Marvel appeals more to younger readers then DC you asked how and I tried to exlpain why I think that DC doesn’t get as many new readers as Marvel.
On a completely different subject I just bought the Avengers the Initiative and umm this book is great firt book on my stack and it might even be my POW wow, awesome!!!!
I may be nuts, but it seems like most other forms of popular entertainment have a more-or-less reliable way of gauging success (see the last twenty pages of any Entertainment weekly) but comic sales are measured in pixie smiles and unicorn kisses. Nobody seems to know, or even be keeping track, of how actual books are actually performing. Every time this comes up, you hear, “That doesn’t factor in trades,” “that doesn’t factor in bookstores vs. direct market,” “that doesn’t count actual readers, only retailers,” and on and on. Is it that the full, useful numbers are just proprietary and kept from public view?
I don’t think comics are any worse at gauging success than most. Websites aren’t tracked well. Alexa doesn’t do a good job. I can tell you that podcast ratings and popularity are guesses at best. They can tell you about downloads, but not complete downloads, or if anyone actually watches the product. TV relies on Nielsen, which is outdated. Movies tend to only go by box office grosses, and discount DVD sales entirely before declaring a movie a success or a failure. But I would say that the direct market monopoly system leaves much to be desired. I have no alternatives however.
I’m sure none of this really means anything. I expect Countdown will be big and World War III will be as huge as Infinite Crisis and bigger than Marvel’s World War Hulk.
Regardless, two of the three DC comics I read right now are mini’s and that’s not likely to change anytime soon. I’m a Marvel zombie for a reason; not just because of simple brand loyalty.
You know, it’s conversations like this that make me feel guilty for reading certain things in trades and not supporting the monthlies. For example, when I was in the store today, I walked by Checkmate and debated about buying it, just so the sales would be up, even though I’ve only read (and loved) it in trade.
Maybe all this hub bub is just a trick to get us to buy more single issues! The bastards!
Wouldnt it be fun if all the internet fanboys picked a random low selling book and just bought the fuck out of it? Just to freak out the writer?
They did that with a band on the first episode of This American Life on Showtime.
All things considered, blame for low selling books lies squarely on the shoulders of the publisher. Comic book retailers should be allowed to return certain books after a certain amount of time. They aren’t allowed to return books so they only order what they know for a fact they can sell.
Take books such as Dan Slot’s The Thing. It was a good book that never got a chance. Retailers didn’t order enough copies. They seemingly only ordered enough to sell in the short term. Marvel should have allowed comic book retailers to return this book after six months. That way retailers would have been encouraged to order more copies then what they believed they could sell in the first week.
The publishers need to start sharing in at least some of the risk. As it is now, they force the retailer to take all the risks. They ask the retailer how many copies they should print and then they (through Diamond) require retailers to pay for what they receive that very same week. Even though many comic book shop customers only come in once a month to pick up their books.
All this would be fine and dandy if comic book retailers were making a lot of money selling funny books. Unfortunately, most aren’t. Most retailers have to rely on other products to help pay the bills. It’s rare these days to walk into a comic book shop and discover that they only sell comic books. Most are into selling games and even sports cards.
I think these top 300 lists do more harm then good. Too many people look at them to be some sort of sign of what people are reading. These lists don’t do that. They only show what comic book shops are ordering each month. That’s it. They don’t take into account the fact the most retailers will order extra copies of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN or BATMAN or UNCANNY X-MEN to have on the shelf as back stock. Too many people look at these 300 lists and actually believe that someone is reading every single copy of the comics that make up the top 40. That’s simply not the case.
I was depressed by the figures as well since I’m more of a DC guy and have not enjoyed Civil War. I love 52, but I think it’s put DC’s regular books at a disadvantage for the past year. There are certain things their books haven’t been able to do until 52 wraps up and that has hurt. Having four of your most capable writers tied to 52 was great for 52, but hurt in other places. I will read anything Johns is writing, and that used to be Flash, Teen Titans, JSA, etc. He even makes GL interesting and thank God he’s back on Justice Society. Unfortunately, he can’t do every book and these titles aren’t the same without him. Hopefully Teen Titans can succeed with Beecher.
I hope countdown doesn’t sap the energy out of DC’s regular books like I think 52 has, but I’m a little worried. The fill ins and late starts have definitely hurt as well. Jumping on points are also jumping off points. DC has some great books that aren’t selling well (Checkmate, Shadowpact, Manhunter) and I hope they can turn things around before they get cancelled.
Is there anyone out there that really does a solid job of analyzing this stuff about the business of comics? I’m pretty interested and would like to know more.
Told ya the Initiative should be POW!!! hehehe
Try to stay on-topic, please. 🙂
Sorry, I haven’t read the entire discussion, so I don’t know if this was brought up, but the most troubling thing about the numbers for BOTH companies is that there’s no real organic growth. Titles shed off a few hundred (or thousand) copies each month, and it’s described as a natural progression. That doesn’t sound healthy, and artificially inflating the numbers by stunts, variant covers, events, and crossovers will only last for so long. That’s what made Marvel special in 2000/2001, the only “stunt” was getting back to telling good, different stories, and the readership went up (or at least that’s what I recall happening). Marvel especially seems to be falling back into the trap of the early/mid-90s.
I was reading this response to the numbers, and it made me laugh out loud. “How many audiences come built in with the willingness to put in ‘just about an hour of internet research’ to understand their entertainment?”