mikespit12000

November 19, 2010 8:58 am @Dacampo It's still a bad analogy because the mechanic's work once it has been completed can't be propagated across the world to magically fix other cars and the mechanic doesn't receive royalties for the car he's fixed for every year it remains operational. Your broader point I think is that products and services should be paid for and I agree. Again I'm willing to pay for quality digital products and services, I have and will continue to do so on iTunes and Steam if they provide convenience and ease of use. As an aside when people use "iTunes for comics" I think they just mean shorthand form of a comprehensive digital distribution network that's priced according to what the market will bear. Like I said I'm not interested in debating whether or not copying bits is moral or not. You have your idea of morality and I have mine and neither us are likely to change eachother's minds. What I am interested in is coming up with a solution that gets artists paid and provides consumers with media they are willing to pay for. Just scanning through this thread there are TONS of excellent ideas from bundling comic download codes with print issues, cross promoting with movie and TV on and on. The virtue of these discussions is that hopefully publishers take note and adapt these strategies. If they don't well that's their loss. You can disagree, but I think the vast majority of artists will continue to create regardless of where their royalty checks come from (ad revenue, merchandise, licensing) I'm confident that the creators most adaptable to change like the Doctorow's the NINs The Steve Liebers of the world will continue to make a living, because it absolutely can be done, it's just that change is scary especially when it concerns your ability to make a living. That's nothing new. I'd be willing to bet money that everyone in this thread makes a living doing something that tomorrow could be rendered obsolete by technology. That's a risk we all take when we learn a skill, but that's been the case for centuries and isn't likely to change. 

November 18, 2010 4:43 pm @dacampo the mechanic argument was a bad analogy to begin with and I think the peril of these discussions is we start trading false equivalencies when thetruth is you are right digital media is completely unprecedented. You also say that if tomorrow you woke up and everyone thought piracy was ok we'd be in trouble (paraphrasing, I'm typing on my phone) the reality is the world has embraced file sharing and every report says that it increasing every year. The comics industry is shrinking sure, and I attribute that more to it's cyclical nature and in general people shying away from physical media. As for artists having day jobs I sympathize but I think that shrinkage wages are a symptom of far greater problems like affordable healthcare and a global ecconomic downturn but that's a whole other thread. The fact is creators have been trotting out t piracy as an excuse for decades and there's never been any compelling evidence to suggest a clear link unless of course you count the hatchet jobs from riaa mpaa

November 18, 2010 2:46 pm

"Sadly, You won't get better art. You will get less art. It will become an unaffordable position for many artists"

 I'd very vigorously argue this point. We've been told for centuries that the next bit of technology will be the end of art. We still have books. We still have movies. We still tell stories. We still have broadcast television.  We will still have comics. The only thing that changes is the distribution method. The agreed upon system is going to change whether the powers that be adapt with it or not. Making a living as an artist has always been hard. As for avoiding paying bills, I'd aargue that point as well. I'd rather read up on my car on the internet and try to fix it myself than pay a mechanic. Sure, I might fuck it up, but that's the upshot and risks of widely available information.

November 18, 2010 2:39 pm

"On the other hand Cory Doctorow is, and always has been, full of crap. "

How so? I've read a bunch of his stuff on boingboing and some of his novels. I'd nitpick with some of his open/closed systems arguments but overall you can't argue with his success. He started out as a relative unknown and built an audience on boingboing, still gives away all his work for free yet cracks the NY Times bestseller list every time. Genuinely interested in counter points to his arguments about digital distribution. 

November 18, 2010 2:23 pm

"Sounds like something a bully would say."

@josh Is that directed at me? We can have civil debate and not toss around pejoratives like bully. I think I've put forth my arguments forth pretty clearly and in good faith, whether you agree or not.

November 18, 2010 2:15 pm @dacampo That's the direction the world is moving in whether the creators like it or not. As Crucio so succinctly put it, "adapt or die". Make a better product and/or distribute it for free or donation. I don't really care. It's not my job to figure out their business models for digital distribution.

November 18, 2010 2:08 pm I agree wholeheartedly w/ Crucio.

November 18, 2010 12:49 pm

@mikespit2000 - "this is absolutely an attempt to justify.  "I do X because of X"  You are justifying your behavior.  I pirate comics because I don't have money, I pirate comics because I don't have an LCS...whatever.  You are providing an reason for behavior...which is an attempt at justification"

No, I'm simply being honest about what I do and why I do it. You can condemn me for it if you want, but Believe me, I'm not looking for anyone's approval.  I'm just being honest about the type of product I'm willing to pay for. The current form of digital comics is not it. I'm not interested in arguing ethics or morality, because clearly the market doesn't care about ethics or morality with regard to copying. The only thing I'm interested is providing open and honest feedback of the type of product I'm willing to pay for. If the creators aren't willing to provide then that's their loss because they are leaving money on the table. I'll go elsewhere for said product. 

"I think the amazing thing is that nobody is focussing on the fact that downloading a copyrighted work is illegal.  You can argue until you are blue in the face whether or not stealing books hurts the creator, but the fact you can't dispute is that it is against the law.  We live in an amazing time where people are perfectly content to break the law as long as they think they can justify it."

And yet millions of people do it every day and no one can produce evidence of any demonstrable harm. In Doran's case she's simply been unable to monetize her work enough for her liking. That's lamentable but clearly she has better options than lobbying congress for a terriblly repressive bill. This is why laws can and should be changed. 

 

@mikespitt2000 - so, are you telling me that you've only ever pirated Surrogates?  And the fact that you bought the book from the creator justifies the pirating?  Honestly, you've never pirated any other book?  Really? If you did, did you also buy the trade/issue from the creator?  If not, your original argument doesn't really stand up that well.  

 

Certainly not. But that sounds to me like an "every download is a lost sale" argument to me which is thoroughly bunk for a whole host of reasons (if you want to get into it we can). If I hadn't read Surrogates online I never would have bought the book.  The vast majority of stuff I find online is junk which I never would have paid good money for in the first place. But on the occasion I find something great I'm more than willing to compensate the creator. As a few examples, Locke and Key bc the HCs are beautiful, Sin City, I'd honestly have to look through my collection to give you a better idea. That's still a net positive for the industry in my opinion, because otherwise I would have given up comics a long time ago. 

 The fact of the matter is piracy will never go away, the only question is how do you harness the distribution method so that creators can keep making money. It can and is being done by people of all stripes.

November 18, 2010 12:08 pm

"I find the rationale that the pirates themselves use to justify their behavior completely transparent B.S."

@CaptainPrimate Why is that? Because in Marloweolram's case he's been able to keep tabs and discover books he likes and thus generate more revenue for publishers and creators when he buys the physical books? Or in my case how I read Surrogates in cbr and bought a copy from Venditti himselfat NYCC a few years ago? I don't think anyone's trying to justify anything. People like free stuff and, like it or not, as a creator in this day and age you have to compete with free stuff. As I mentioned earlier there are a ton of examples of the way people compete with piracy (steam, itunes) and it works. Opening up a dialogue (hopefully) compels other creators to test the waters with smart digital distribution.

November 18, 2010 11:42 am

@wallythegreenmonster That's a fair point about NIN and Radiohead which I'll concede. But we do agree on the larger point that artists can make money if they provide content in a form people want. I think all her arguments are misguided though. If she's losing traffic to pirate sites it's because people are going elsewhere for content she should provide herself. Honestly, it would take her literally ten minutes to bind up her stuff in .cbr and put it behind a donation wall. Not hard. Or build in app and charge .99 which will earn exponentially more than the pennies she gets from page hits. 

Legislating against piracy does not work, we have decades of evidence to back that up.