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A friend and I were talking about comic mash ups (cliche’, I know). He said that he would pit Batman against The Punisher because they are similar characters. I told him this was not so as Batman was not an insane murderer. He disagreed. I know Batman has this anti-gun rule now even though he carried one early on and that he has killed when absolutely necessary (Darkseid in Final Crisis, for example), but Batman has never been The Punisher type has he? The cold-blooded murder kind?
David
David, your friend is, in a word, wrong.
Well, mostly.
If you wanted to stretch the basic element of both Batman and The Punisher to say that they are non-super powered men whose primary adversaries are criminals, then yes, they are similar. But once you go beyond that most basic element, they diverge, as characters, rather quickly.
You said that Batman wasn’t an insane murderer and your friend disagreed. Okay, is Batman insane? Yes, clearly he’s a little bit insane, unless the question of sanity or insanity is a binary proposition, in which case, Batman is insane.
Is he a murderer? No. Has he killed people? Yes, certainly. As you noted, he most recently killed Darkseid in order to stop him from permanently subjugating the human race. Has he killed before? Certainly. He carried a gun and killed people on a semi-regular basis in The Golden Age before he was established as the character we know now. Has Batman murdered? Yes. Is he a murderer? No. That’s the distinction, and I think it’s an important one. Batman as we know him now doesn’t go out looking to kill people, he has only done so in extremely rare, last resort cases. The Punisher, on the other hand, goes out with only one thing on his mind: kill as many criminals as he can before bedtime. The Punisher is a murderer.
I haven’t read every Batman comic book that’s ever been printed, but as far as I know, Batman has never indulged in any kind of criminal killing sprees. So the answer to your final question, no, Batman has never been the cold-blooded killer Punisher type. The closest he has ever come to that was in The Golden Age and even then he was nowhere near the psychopathic, murderous, Punisher-type.
Conor Kilpatrick
I know you guys are big Hellboy fans so I was hoping you could help me out. I’ve recently begun to read Hellboy and so far I have the first two trades, but I’d really like to catch up as quickly as possible since there seems to always be a new Hellboy comic coming out. So after Vol 2, which other stories would you say are the absolutely must read ones in order to fully understand everything that’s currently going on?
Cesar
I do hate to do this to you Cesar, but the fact is, in order to fully understand what’s going on, you’ve kind of got to do the whole thing. This isn’t to say that in order to enjoy Hellboy you’ve got to read everything ever published. You don’t. Most of the stories, short and long, stand on their own, but within them are seeds (of destruction?) of the larger story going on, and at this point, the newest issues seem to be marshaling all those past bits and pieces and heading, very slowly, towards some sort of culmination. So again, if you want to fully appreciate what’s going on, then you’ve got to start at the beginning, and read them all.
What’s the best way to do that? Well, there is a stack of trades, and in each of them is a little bit of the overall story. The trades go like this:
Hellboy, Vol. 1: Seed of Destruction
Hellboy, Vol. 2: Wake the Devil
Hellboy, Vol. 3: The Chained Coffin and Others
Hellboy, Vol. 4: The Right Hand of Doom
Hellboy, Vol. 5: Conqueror Worm
Hellboy, Vol. 6: Strange Places
Hellboy, Vol. 7: The Troll Witch and Others
Hellboy, Vol. 8: Darkness Calls
Hellboy, Vol. 9: The Wild Hunt
Hellboy, Vol. 10: The Crooked Man and Others
You could also spring for the Library Editions, which are big and lovely, and contain these stories over three available volumes, with at least two more to come. There’s also Dark Horse digital which will have most of this available as well, starting next week.
Not every story is going to relate to the overall story, and by reading them all now, you’re not going to have the same experience as someone who’s been reading them, dripping like an IV into their lives since 1994. In fact, you’ll probably pick up the breadcrumbs a little better than someone who couldn’t possibly remember all the details of the first story 17 years ago. So you’ve got your work cut out for you. But it’s good work. Just take your time, and enjoy the ride, like so many other Hellboy fans have been forced to.
Josh Flanagan
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Dark Horse digital is going to make recommending Hellboy much, much easier. Just pick one and start reading.
@conner In regards to your answer…I would also include a reference to a Batman/Punisher comic from some years ago titled: Batman/Punisher. It highlights their differences and a few similarities. Below is a brief review of it, along with a cover image.
http://365daysofcomics.com/2010/11/punisherbatman.html
– Dom
Have Dark Horse started numbering the Hellboy trades yet? Would make everything much easier… for example DC have just started reprinting and numbering the Hellblazer trades (Original Sins just came out and collected the first Delano arc AND the Swamp Thing stuff which was rather awesome!) and then they are moving on to Dangerous Habits etc…
The Hellboy trades are numbered.
@origamikid yes. As far as I know they have for a long while. Same with BPRD
Yeah, but I can’t just write 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10. 😉
JLA/Avengers #1. Batman jumps through a skylight to stop the Punisher from murdering a bunch of criminals. ‘Nuff said.
i’ve been reading the first few hellboy trades in order, and thats just the only way to do it. I’m actually considering getting rid of the trades and going for the library editions.
@josh Trade programs teach important skills like counting.
If publishers can work in multiplication tables, they’re golden.
@josh Yeah. That goes back to that wikipedia suggestion I emailed you. Comic fans seem to be very devoted and thorough enough to make sure that the info about comics is current on most of the comic-related subjects of wiki. It’s one of the main ways I get my trade information.
I though of another log to throw onto the Punisher is NOT Batman bonfire. Frank is all about REVENGE. His family was killed, and that turned him into a hate machine with taste for dead criminals. The hole created by the murder of his family will NEVER BE FILLED! It doesn’t matter how many bad guys he kills because it will never be enough to fill the hole where his family used to be.
Bats on the other hand is more about making the world safe for others. The best way for him to do that is to take as many criminals off the street as possible. Alive… Unless something goes wrong. Batman has a family now. Hate is not a motivator. The Joe Chill thing has gone back and forth so many times that I forget what the current version is, but Bats would’ve been able to just eliminate the “person” that killed his parents, and that would have been it. It’s not. Batman’s continuing motivation, to me, is that there are other families out there, and he wants them to never have to go thru what he did.
well said, Conor
Well, Batman and Punisher have more in common that you might think:
Batman: Family killed by criminal.
Punisher: Family killed by criminals.
Batman: Became what he is because of those deaths.
Punisher: Became what he is because of those deaths. (Arguably)
Batman: Peak physical condition.
Punisher: Peak physical condition.
Batman: Excellent hand-to-hand fighter, can take a beating and dish one out.
Punisher: Excellent hand-to-hand fighter, can take a beating and dish one out.
Batman: Master strategist, intimate knowledge of how targets will react.
Punisher: Master strategist, intimate knowledge of how targets will react.
The interesting thing is how their paths diverged, as Conor ably described. I haven’t read the Batman/Punisher comic in a long time, but if didn’t explore these similarities, some writer should. Of course, the age of crossovers is kind of, well, over now.
Thanks for answering my Hellboy question Josh. Damn though, I was kind of hoping there were a few of those trades that I could skip over for now and read them later on, but I guess I’ll have to pass on reading the current stuff for now
Chris Sims wrote an article about why Batman doesn’t kill yesterday, really worth a read.
@BC1 I was going to mention that same thing. It’s one of my favorite moments in the JLA/Avengers crossover. Batman makes this big speech about how they have to stay on track, don’t divert from the job at hand, stay focused no matter what……then like 2 panels later he sees Punisher about to kill some people and goes runs off to kick his ass. It was like a moment out of JLI. So great!
The Hellboy library editions are so great. Just finished vol. 2 today ordering vol 3 next month. They really live up to their name, the quality is through the roof. Amazon already has vol. 4 for pre-order so it should be within the next 9 months. lol
I would argue that Batman is obsessive not insane.
He knows exactly what he is doing why- and the consequences of his actions.
Sure what he does is a little “crazy”
His resources- his training- his planning. All this gives him a reasonable chance to accomplish his goals.
But
If you want to compare what he does to real life- well…
the hellboy library edition has been on my wishlist for some time now..
Cesar,
Just to give a real answer to your question.
Sometimes i think the crowd here doesn’t really take things like time and money into account when they talk about what comics are worth reading. If you want to save on either of these i would suggest not getting:
Hellboy: The Chained Coffin and Others
Hellboy: The Troll Witch and Others
Hellboy: The Crooked Man and Others
Hellboy can be quite indulgent and waffling at times so maybe give those a miss.
and i would also say you could pretty easily understand what’s happening without them too
I just checked my trades, and not ALL printings of Hellboy are numbered. Newer versions are, but older printings have no numbers. So there you go.
@edward — i disagree with those out-takes. I’ve read them and thought they were fun. Bottom line, if you pace yourself, its not too expensive to read through them in order. No one says you have to buy them all at once.
@wallythegreenmonster personally, i don’t even think those particular trades are all that great. I would also add strange places to that collection too
If money is an issue, a lot of libraries are getting pretty big graphic novel collections these days. You can always read them for free and see which ones you want to own for future re-readings.