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I often hear you discussing the issue of how trade readers are killing the industry softly by diminishing and distorting the sales of early issues or worse still, strangling them at birth at the solicitations/preordering stage.
Having like most people a limited budget, I tend to play it safe when picking up my weekly stack of single issues unless I hear a particular buzz or trio of independent recommendations to check something out and then if I enjoy it, fill in the blanks with earlier arcs by picking up the collection.
The problem here is that I am a hardcover snob. Like you, I have an almost unhealthy fetish for the little length of ribbon and will resist buying softcovers whenever I can. Although I enjoy my trades of Dan Slott’s She-Hulk, 52, Captain Britain and MI-13, and the Onslaught Epic as much if not more in some cases as my hardcover collections of Morrisson’s JLA, Bendis’ The New and Mighty Avengers and the complete Joss Whedon Astonishing, I can’t help but feel slightly disappointed in them and certainly can’t bring myself to shelve them next to Locke and Key.
The consequence of this is that while Marvel are able to cannily cash in from the likes of me by rushing out a Marvel Premiere edition within weeks or days of the final issue in the arc hitting the stands, DC’s much maligned trade policy is even worse when it comes to hardcover selections it seems, except for massively hyped titles they know are going to sell anyway. Secret Warriors is a great example of something I was completely put off from buying when it came out, but loved in hardcover, as are Hickman’s S.H.I.E.L.D., Avengers Prime, and Young Avengers: The Children’s Crusade. Although you feel bad not jumping on, there is comfort from the fact that this stuff is likely to get collected anyway and Marvel will take at least some note of trade sales. These factors are further mitigated in some instances like those given where it’s a limited series with erratic shipping schedules.
Everything about the way DC publish their collections seems to be calculated to squeeze as much money out of the consumer as possible for the same material. Blackest Night (which I greatly enjoyed) went through print run after print run after print run for all it’s issues and tie ins, with the hardcover collection pre-announced at the start of the event for months and months after the fact, with the aim presumably to push sales of single issues through the roof for as long as humanly possible. Whilst that’s fair and they played that particular game pretty shrewdly, in cases where they need to play catch up, things are left either left undone or done poorly and the end result is infuriating. “Batman RIP” was hyped and promoted as the most important and pivotal Batman in living memory and was seen in every (non-comic) bookshop in the land. Whereas Marvel put out Brubaker’s Cap as collection of issues 1-25 with specials and bonus material in sequence and is utterly compelling presented that way, “RIP” is baffling and seemingly totally inconsequential without the 15 or so issues preceding it. Tracking down hardcovers or even trades of Batman and Son, The Black Glove, and the Resurrection of Ra’s al Ghul is pretty difficult and I was infuriated when I finally picked up the Black Glove trade with the poor presentation of J.H. Williams III and David Finch’s artwork and the obvious need to at least slot Finch’s 3 issues into the start of “RIP” to make sense of it all. Similarly, I adored my “deluxe” hardcover edition of Batwoman: Elegy, but my jaw dropped when I realised that the story just stopped dead at the end of J.H. Williams III’s issues and know with absolute certainty that Jock’s 3 issues rounding out Rucka’s curtailed run on Detective will never be collected together in the same way, if at all. Post-Sinestro Corps War, there are still two issues of Green Lantern Corps dealing with the Alpha Lanterns uncollected even in trade — the single issues are a nightmare to track down, so I have had make do with reading them on my iPhone.
I can see this happening again in the future with Paul Cornell’s issues of Batman and Robin, I doubt they will ever be collected with either Morrison’s run or Pete Tomasi’s. I can see the reason why this happens, more creators credited in a volume means more people to share the money out to and if the material was originally commissioned as filler, it is often seen (wrongly) to either be inconsequential or of lower quality than the rest.
I can understand that that is the reason, but it’s not a good reason.
In summary, I have concluded that while Marvel and the likes of particularly IDW and Image make a real effort to make the material available in whatever format people want to have it in, pull out all the stops to add in bonus content and put it out quickly, DC still segregates it’s consumers (whilst not understanding correctly who they are) and work really hard to keep control over their content, how it is available and when. DC seemingly thinks of it’s customers as either being comics people or “books” people and doesn’t understand that the two are not mutually exclusive. In their minds, “books” people buy hardcover collections to put on their shelves next to Tolstoy and don’t buy trades. Comics people buy big stacks of single issues every month and buy trades when they miss issues. Comics people do not own Tolstoy or indeed any other “books”. (By “books” in this case, I mean of course “real books”, as in “Don’t you own any real books?” or “I don’t read books, I just read comics).
The end result is that DC’s big push a while back was to aggressively sell “Batman RIP” to “books” people at same time The Dark Knight was out, which is neither appropriate, nor in any way smart or sustainable.
I appreciate this is far too long to read out on air, but I think it’s an important issue that needs highlighting for the 95% of us who do not own more than one Absolute and feel that comics and movies are becoming too interdependent, so feel free to paraphrase me.
By the way, interesting thing I noticed about the whole Thor: The Mighty Avenger debacle — it was clearly meant to be the streamlined, pre-movie primer/jumping on point in the same way Extremis was and although they clearly decided it wasn’t going to work and went to try something else, I did notice it features the introduction of the Afro-Norse version of Heimdall that exercised so many people’s ire when the casting was announced. Nice touch.
Spikey P. from the UK
Wow. One Thousand One Hundred and Eighty-Eight words. Do you know how long it’s been since I wrote that much on any single topic? “In summary” came in about 2/3 of the way down. We get letters like these more often than you would think actually, but for the last time, I’m not going to pay you to write unsolicited essays for us. Jeez.
And now I shall skim and respond in a manner completely opposite the manner in which this question was asked.
First of all, trade waiting and buying is not “killing” the industry. No one said that. It’s changing the way comics are produced and sold, but make no mistake, if anything, collected editions are saving the industry.
If I may, you’re saying you don’t like the way DC does trades. That’s basically it right? Well, no one does. Of course they’re trying to squeeze out as much profit as possible from all potential readers. They have a giant overhead, and are part of a mega-conglomerate corporation, and run a business with ridiculously low margins, predicated mostly on the hope that they’ll make one more big movie based on them to keep everyone flush until the next one. The way I see it, the trade program at DC is designed for different readers than the people who buy issues. So you, and many other readers are coming at it from the standpoint of being issue readers, but you want it collected. But it ain’t that way. In DC’s eyes, the people who buy the various editions of their collections are different people with different needs than the issue people who must have everything, and have it a certain way. There is no answer to this obviously, other than doing your tiny part in voting for the format and material you like best. You don’t like the way DC does collections, then don’t support them. If it’s more important to you to read the stories, then suck it up.
I’m guessing the overwhelming success of a few collections like Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns has whoever it is who decides convinced that things are working A-okay as they are. I guess it could change, but since they just made Bob Harras the Editor-In-Chief, and he’d been in charge of DC’s collected editions prior to that, well, “You’re doing a heckuva job, Brownie.”
And my advice to you Spikey is that some things are gonna be good, and somethings are gonna be not so good, and not everything is gonna be perfect, and yes, they’re just comics. Don’t worry about that shelf so much.
Josh Flanagan
Sometimes we get e-mail whose answers would be too short to constitute a full entry in the weekly letters column. Those people usually get quick e-mail responses. This week, I thought I’d throw a few of ’em up here instead.
Several years ago I picked up the novel version of Batman: Knightfall by Dennis O’Neil. This then led me to hunt down the comic version where I then found Azrael. I know this arc has few fans, as it also introduced Bane, but I fell in love with Azrael and have since bought every issue of his series that I could find. What I would like to know is this: as a fan of the Jean Paul Valley version, is there anything in it for me to go in on the new Azrael series? It seemed like a good time to ask this as they just advertised the second trade in Previews.
Samuel C. (lobofan)
I only read the first two or three issues of the new Azrael series and as far as I can remember there was nothing in there for Jean-Paul Valley *spit* fans. I’ve mostly forgotten about what happened in those issues because they weren’t very memorable but I don’t recall Jean-Paul Valley *spit* ever even being mentioned. It was all about the new Azreal. As far as I can remember.
To fix Hawkman’s scattered history, why not have him crossover with the Legion? A character who is reincarnated throughout history and a team of the future would make a good match. Or, has this been done already?
Vichus S.
I’m not sure how that would necessarily “fix” Hawkman’s convoluted continuity problem, but it does seem like it would be a rather fun story. It’s a good point you raise, though. Why haven’t we seen a seemingly immortal character like Hawkman in the Legion of Super-Heroes’ time? (Or have we? I don’t know enough about the Legion to say for sure.) Does he die? Retire? Who knows, but it would be a fun to find out, I think. That story would get me to check out a Legion book again.
How old was Dick when he became Robin? Was he 10 or 12?
Dick is half-Romany (Gypsy) What does that mean and how does it affect him?
JLoSlick
There’s isn’t a definitive answer on how old Dick was when he became Robin because over the years there have been different interpretations as to how old he was. The real (boring) answer is that Dick was however old the writer needs him to be in a particular origin story. I believe that in the original Golden Age story in which Dick Grayson first appeared he was 10 years old.
What does that mean that Dick is half Romany? It means one of his parents is Romany, or comes from a line of gypsies? I’m not aware of it having any demonstrable affect on Dick, though. He probably heard a lot of bad jokes as a kid.
I was just wondering how you know what has or hasn’t been ret-conned in a big event like Infinite Crisis. I understand things like Bucky or Jason Todd not being dead cause its spelled out in their return. But I often hear about how Batman: Year One or certain Superman stories have been ret-conned but in reading the events I don’t see where that is stated.
Jordan (smitty)
It’s different for every event. In Infinite Crisis, if I recall correctly, the changes to continuity were spelled out at the end in caption boxes after the Earths all got merged. But in an event like Crisis on Infinite Earths, DC put out a supplemental mini-series called History of the DC Universe that spelled out the new timeline. They had to do that because just about EVERYTHING changed after Crisis. There was some sort of supplemental after Zero Hour too or maybe it was a timeline in the book itself. I don’t really remember the details about that one because Zero Hour is best left forgotten. Sometimes, though, DC editorial will just say, “hey this was changed in [insert event name here].” There’s a lot of paying attention to various things that one must do after an event if one wants to know how everything shakes out.
Or you could be like me and not worry about it and just create your own continuity in your head. That way the stuff you like stays and the stuff you don’t goes.
Conor Kilpatrick
I was just wondering if you could pick your favorite Rogues Gallery of both a DC and a Marvel superhero, which Rogues Gallery would that be? My personal favorites are The Flash’s & Spider-Man’s Rogues.
SpiderTitan
Whenever we discuss Rogues Galleries, I can’t help but force myself to give a nod to The Flash’s rogues as well. Not only because I’m a fan of The Flash and they possibly the best Rogues Gallery in all of comics, but because they were the very definition of Rogues Gallery, the place where the term even came from. So anytime we talk about favorite Rogues, I have to give it up for Captain Cold, Heat Wave, Mirror Master and the rest of the crew. It helps that through some amazing comics, Geoff Johns has re-established these Rogues to be top notch villains and the constant conflict between the Rogues and The Flash is one of the great things that makes The Flash so special. I’ll even go as far to say that The Flash Rogues are the best Rogues Gallery in all of DC Comics. Yep, even better than Batman’s Rogues. Why? Unification. Sure Batman has a huge Rogues Gallery of interesting villains with unique powers and motivations, but it’s the team unity that The Flash Rogues has that makes them chilling. Not only are they evil, but they’re united and watch each other’s back. That’s enough to give any hero nightmares.
Over on the Marvel side of things, the concept of a Rogues Gallery isn’t nearly as neat and clean as it is at DC Comics. I’m not surprised to hear that you like Spider-Man’s Rogues the most, because out of all the heroes in the Marvel Universe, Spider-Man’s really the only one with a group of villains that come close to the concept of a Rogues Gallery with interesting and unique villains who even have teamed up from time to time to form the Sinister Six.
But for me, it should come as no surprised that my favorite Rogues would have to be the Rogues Gallery of the X-Men from the high days of the 1980s/early 1990s. A high point in the history of the X-Men was filled with chilling and dangerous villains that seemed relentless. Starting in the mid 100s through the high 200s, we were treated to the Morlocks (with Callisto and Masque), Freedom Force (Mystique, Blob, Pyro, etc.), Magneto, Mr. Sinister, The Marauders (Sabretooth, Scalphunter, Vertigo), The Reavers, Lady Deathstrike, The Hellfire Club and the Hellions, Apocalypse, the list goes on and on. It was a dangerous time for the X-Men, with villains around every corner and the stories read like they should, high action comic books with stakes. Sometime after Chris Claremont left, the focus moved away from these classic villains as new writers tried to come up with new threats, but for me, it will always be this classic time period’s Rogues that I enjoyed the most.
Ron Richards
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Yours is an eloquent argument, Spikey, but as a trades guy, I’m going to side with Josh on the “trades are/aren’t killing the industry” question. Regardless of whether you’re buying trades or issues, it’s still money going back to the publishers, and if they can reach a broader audience with both issues and trades, they’re getting more money overall.
DC’s trades policy sucks, that’s true, but my philosophy is: If they publish something you want to read, and you want to own it in trade, really wait for the trade. I’ve waited years before buying some stories I know that I’ll want to own, because there’s no rush. The stories aren’t going anywhere. The waiting is almost the fun part; you get to do research on what stories are good and which aren’t, which other stories you need to understand before reading them, analyze which are worth buying, and in the process get a more honest feel for what you like and don’t like.
As a trades reader, you’re also forced to ask yourself: Do you enjoy comics more for the experience of reading them, or for the prestige of having a nice hardcover set on your shelf? Because unless all your friends are rabid comic fans (also, the same kinds of fans as you are), there isn’t much prestige to be had in owning a full set of Absolute Sandman. So I end up going for the cheapest trade, softcover or no, meaning I have more money to spend later on other good stories.
And if all that waiting and analysis doesn’t sound like fun, there’s always issues. I can respect issues people for wanting to follow a series, hell or high water, to see what new things they try, even if those things don’t work out. They’re like the people who sit down every week to watch a TV show as it airs, whereas I’m the one who waits for the whole series on DVD and gorges on it in one sitting to see how it holds up as a complete story.
And, let’s face it, DVDs aren’t killing television. Why should it be different with trades?
For the Azrael question, yes it’s all about Michael Lane and it has nothing to do with the original.
But I urge anyone to read it because it is a pretty good book. Now the art in the first run with Ramon Bachs is pretty sub-part. But Fabian Nicieza’s writing really makes up for it with a great look at religion and faith. Also, the new run with David Hine and Gullem March was really entertaining and completely fucked up. You see a full on flaying in one issue!…..Flaying! It’s really hardcore violent.
Trade-waiting on Batwoman is killing me, but that’s the format I want for those stories.
My problem with the idea that Flash’s Rogue Gallery is better than that of Batman’s is that casual DC readers, like myself, have never heard of most of the Flash villains: Captain Cold and that’s about it. Casual readers know the Penguin, Two Face, the Joker, Poison Ivy and maybe a few others from Batman’s gallery.
But of course the question refers to your “favorite” which is obviously left for interpretation.
365 Days of Comics
@dgazzuolo There is often a disparity between quality and notoriety. Such is the history of all art everywhere.
The Flash Rogues are evil? I’m not so sure that they are. They’re surely bad men, performing morally reprehensible acts, but they do have principles when it comes to whom they would kill. The Joker is evil, Darkseid is evil, but the Rogues, not so much.
While I don’t entirely agree with your argument about it, Spikey, I certainly can agree with Batman RIP. My friend had been reading the whole thing, so he shoved the hardcover of RIP in my hand. I read, but I can’t say it mae any impact whatsoever on its own.
What’s with the Azrael spitting? lol. I don’t think he’s as unlikable as Sentry.
@Conor as far as immortal characters popping up in legion, check out Abnett and Lannings run (difficult since it has not been collected, but the issues are fairly easy at cons). Ra’s Al Ghul plays a huge part. Very fun.
I don’t think DC’s trade policy sucks, but i don’t have to own everything, and i don’t need a hardcover in my hands 72 hours after the last issue has shipped. I wait, i buy things when i get around to it. I just got the 2nd Powergirl trade even though i loved the first one when it came out.
People with extreme completist compulsions are keeping the industry afloat in their own way, whereas people like me just get things when they can, when they are on sale so that they can enjoy their comic reading hobby.
I have a LARGE book (Comics, Art etc) collection….it doesn’t impress anyone buy me. haha
Close to half of what I purchase in monthly form is, at some point, going to get re-purchased again in the future in a different form. At least with DC’s trade policy, the wait from completion of a series/arc to its “absolute” form is such that the re-purchase is a year or longer off and, by then, I have determined the story’s re-readability. What has changed recently for DC’s trade policy are the deluxe hardcovers. These match the page size of the Marvel omnibus program and DC, it seems, has been releasing more of these each year. I would argue that the Vertigo imprint has a fantastic trade program. It seems pretty clear what DC wants to do with that line when it comes to trade/hc packaging. But they don’t treat the DCU with the same formula? Seems odd.
A little off topic, but I want to add:
Offer me the exact same story for the exact same price in a Marvel Omnibus form and as a DC Absolute form, I’ll buy the Absolute every time. DC may not have the speed in trade policy, but they excel in the quality department when the product is released.
@lifesend Is the joker evil?
What is this, a cognitive psych survey?
@ed209AF It depends on whether one views him as sane or insane. He’s usually shipped to Arkham when he’s captured, but I think that’s simply because his behavior greatly deviates from the norm, not necessarily because he’s cognitively deficient. I tend to favor views that portray him as hyper-sane, so I would say he’s evil by common standards.
@lifesend I would think that a person is evil if he/she knows that they are doing the evil things and just don’t care at all. So I believe that the Joker is more insane than evil if he’s evil at all.
@Ron Thanks Ron! You completely summed up my love for the Falsh Rogues & I totally agree with you on the 80s X-Men villains I really wish that the Marauders were brought back to form in today’s X-Men comics, but now they are treated like jokes even Mr.Sinister hasn’t been treated right since then & he is arguably one of the most dangerous villains for the X-Men ever.
@lifesend I tend to think the joker just sees reality differently and plans his actions accordingly, so to me, not evil.
Broken record I may be, but:
DC has rogues. Marvel has villains. Flash, Batman, et al. have Rogues. Spidey, Cap, X-Men etc. have Villains.
This idea that buying trades instead of issues kills comics is absurd. Never feel guilty about paying for stories.
I’m still upset that hawkeye & Mockingbird didn’t make it to trade before it got cenceled. I think that had a real chance of getting some followers who didn’t want to risk the initial ongoing.