iFanboy Video Podcast

iFanboy – Episode #113 – Final Crisis!

Show Notes

Everyone loves a Crisis, especially DC Comics!


In the past year’s most polarizing comic book series, Grant Morrison took the DC Universe on a dark ride that featured the “death” of one of the world’s most recognizable fictional characters, and the return of one of comicdom’s most beloved characters, back from the dead after nearly 25 years. Was it a success? Was it a failure? Was it somewhere in-between? iFanboy covers all your Final Crisis bases this week, and not surprisingly, come to three (somewhat) different conclusions.

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Comments

  1. MeanOldPig MeanOldPig says:

    This is up at a random time! I was just about to go to bed.

  2. nickmaynard says:

    don’t you think the cover for #1 with the cave paintings proves that the last page of #7 was always part of the plan? i mean, you can’t call it tacked on if it was tacked on before the series started. 

  3. My lols:

    "Internet fight!"

    "there are skrulls"

  4. SummerSleep SummerSleep says:

    I bought the Secret Files, too. The cover was the best part. Great Analysis guys, I really love this series more and more the more I think and hear about it.  I am gonna buy all the "Morrison-List" issues, and see what it’s like. Anyone else doing that?

  5. muddi900 says:

    Well I reread issues 1-6 after reading #6. I had the same reaction as Josh. I still haven’t read Superman Beyond, I don’t know what to make of it. My opinion is that it would’ve been so much better had it been 12 issue maxi series.

    Imagine if Watchmen tried to tell the same story in 7 issues?

  6. Heroville Heroville says:

    So my best summary of Final Crisis: This is the story of the death of the Fourth World and the battle for the control of the Fifth.

  7. Kory Kory says:

    "It reads better when you re-read it all in one sitting"

    That’s a common sentiment I hear people say about all comics nowadays.  I wonder sometimes if it would be better to give up single issues entirely and just wait for the trade. And I’m starting to lean  heavily towards trade waiting.

  8. Labor Labor says:

    Is there are anyone who has been reading comics for more than say, a year, actually believes the "you don’t need the tie-ins! You don’t have to be a long time fan!" spiel?

    By their nature, comic book events are merely fan service. You always need to read the tie-ins. You always need to know everything leading into the event. 

    Total bullshit on the Pubs’ part.

  9. Whoa way too early for this! I didnt have my beauty sleep…..nor did I read the 22 page summary I typed up for this occassion. I’ll get into this show and the discussion when I wake up…and I’ve lost some of my sanity to get into the discussion.

  10. Labor Labor says:

    "The Living Flame"

    HAHAHA. Oh God, can’t stop laughing. The most painful and clumsy video episode ever.

    Love it!

  11. Jim Mroczkowski Jimski (@jimski) says:

    I’d dispute the blanket statement that "’you don’t need to read the tie-ins’ is bullshit." I can’t speak to recent DC events, but Civil War and House of M were completely self-contained. Hell, tie-ins were actively detrimental to my enjoyment of Secret Invasion. The more this misconception is accepted as conventional wisdom, the more terrible "Young Avengers/Runaways" minis get sold for no good reason.

  12. Labor Labor says:

    There was quite a lot about Civil War and (especially) House of M that either fell flat for lack of tie-in material or confused to no end (I buy like 6 Marvel U books, 3 of them Avengers).

    House of M is more complete for the "your heart’s desire" tie-ins. Without that the weight of the story is as about that of a feather. Civil War was much better off for having shown some (pathetic though they were) result to the SHRA.

    Could one read CW 1-7 and get the A-plot? I suppose. Is that the complete experience of the event? Of course not. Same is true of Final Crisis.

  13. Labor Labor says:

    Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds isn’t even over yet.

  14. Heroville Heroville says:

    Yea but its story in relation to that of the rest of Final Crisis pretty much is, we just need to know what’s up with Bart now.

  15. androidmoser androidmoser says:

    Josh’s "short" summary of the series had me actually laughing out loud.

    Great summary! I re-read issues 1-6 of the main series the day # 7 came out, and it made a lot more sense. But you HAVE to read the 2 issues of Superman Beyod to understand the ending. I’m glad DC is putting those and the Submit 1-shot in the collection, because it really will help bookstore readers "get it."

  16. lexid523 says:

    LOL, I was reminded of the time over Christmas break when me and a friend from high school got into a good old-fashioned Marvel vs. DC debate, and it ended when I shouted "What the hell is going on in Final Crisis?!" and she responded, in all earnestness, "No one knows!!"

     I’m still confused, but as long as Scott and Barda are back, I’m good.

  17. @Jimski: While I completely agree that House of M (which I really enjoyed) was self contained I cannot say the same about Civil War. Yes, the reader knew all the major plot points, but many of them were done off panel and reveled just through (what seemed to me) to be clunky exposition with the dialogue. The series moved at a very odd pace and I think if I had read the tie-ins, I would have enjoyed it much more.

     As far as Final Crisis went, i did read all the tie-ins, and while it didn’t make a whole lot of sense the first time around, reading it in "Morrison Order" really helped and assisted me in making sense of the whole thing. So, I’d say after second reading, i did enjoy it.

  18. Jim Mroczkowski Jimski (@jimski) says:

    Whether the tie-ins make a given story better– or even good– is something that one can certainly dive into on a story-by-story basis, but the implication when people are talking about this issue is usually that reading the tie-ins is the difference between the story being comprehensible and it being gibberish, and that simply is not the case for the examples I have in mind. Maybe the real problem is that the publishers are always saying, "You don’t need to read the tie-ins!" but they aren’t finishing the sentence. You don’t need to read the tie-ins… to do what?

    What people really should be making noise about isn’t that you need to read the tie-ins to understand the event; it’s that you have to read the event to get anything out of the tie-in books. Haven’t we all been regularly reading a favorite title only to have it suddenly disrupted by a crossover? During Secret Invasion, two or three of my favorite titles were effectively not being published for eight months. I’ll never forget the day I bought my beloved Gotham Central only to discover I was suddenly reading Infinite Crisis. "Oh, and it’s murdering the book, you say? Awesome."

  19. Tork Tork says:

    Heh. I’m only three minutes in but Ron’s expressions are priceless.  I love how annoyed he looks.

  20. drakedangerz drakedangerz says:

    @nickmaynard-It was tacked on in order to show readers what had happened to Batman because DC wanted it to be made more clear.  At least, thats what Morrison said.  It was always part of the plan to have that happen to Batman I think, but he didn’t want to include that information in the issue.  I’m fairly certain other changes were made to issue 7, but officially he is saying that was the only change to the issue that was mandated.

    Superman Beyond was good when read together.  The first issue doesn’t stand on its own very well at all.

    Agree with Josh: read it again and you will not hate it as much.  You might still hate it, but just that tiny little bit less.  Overall I liked the story.  I like Morrison because you get so much out of his work and every word he puts in means something.  Everything is incredibly thought out.

    I eagerly away the Seven Soldiers show :)

     

  21. What?! Where’s the "Morisson lovers are snoots / Morisson haters have low IQ!" comments?

  22. Tork Tork says:

    I think the only things that threw me in Final Crisis was Mandrakk at the end and I wasn’t sure of the Omega Sanction thing at first.  Other than that, I was pretty on top of things.  I really liked this series a lot especially compared to a lot of recent events.

  23. CronyC CronyC says:

    lol well Josh did a way better job at breaking it down than I did when I tried…I just got confused and said I need to go get my jet pack…

    Im gonna read it the way Grant Morrison says it should be read now see if it clears some stuff up and I guess im gonna look for the secret files 2.

  24. Tork Tork says:

    I do believe Luthor or somebody makes a reference to Libra’s backhistory regarding Darkseid in issue 7 but I could be wrong on that.  I do know that I haven’t read Secret Files and I knew that Darkseid brought Libra back from somewhere though that might have been Wikipedia.

    I will say though that I don’t think DC made any indication that they were going to have Libra be anybody other than the original Libra.  It was the fans (including moi) who speculated that Libra might be somebody else behind the mask.  DC was fairly straightforward about Libra being just Libra.

  25. There are two big problems with Final Crisis:

    1) The marketing. Seriously, DC should’ve released the ‘Morrison Reading Order’ as it was intented. Stuff like Revelations or Rouges Revenge can be released at any time. But they should’ve released Final Crisis #1-3, then Superman Beyond, then the Submit one-shot, Final Crisis #4-5, Batman Last Rites, then finally Final Crisis #6-7. Why couldnt they release the event like that? If that was Morrison’s intentions for the fans to read, then DC should’ve released it like that. This could’ve helped the problem with J.G. Jones (nice segway)

    2) The art problem ruined the impact of this series. Cause Jones decided to sit on his hands and not continue with the art (1 1/2 years ahead to do this!) then maybe more people would’ve enjoyed it more. Instead DC decided to get waaay too many pencilliers, inkers, and colorists to finish Jones mess. I would’ve preferred Pachelo or Manhke to do the entire series rather then J.G. ‘I am late on everything’ Jones.

    Other then that….I loved every single moment of this event! This is Morrison almost unfiltered and trying to tell new stories to established heroes. Instead of getting a dumb, summer blockbuster (like Secret Invasion), we got a new definition to the word ‘event’. I admit I didnt read Superman Beyond as it’s intent (then again no one else probably did) so the final issue did confuse me a bit. I mean my original review for #7 was ‘What the hell did I read?’ But after reading it over again, and reading the intended reading order…This was so much better of a read. I definitely recommend a second try at this event. Besides that’s the point for any Morrison work, he wants you to think about what your reading and not just take one quick jab at it.

  26. Jesse1125 Jesse1125 says:

    Does anyone really care about Tawky Tawny, lolita canary or Sonny Sumo?

    7th issue was a huge letdown. This series peaked early for me

  27. Tork Tork says:

    Superman Beyond and some of Last Rites probably should have been integrated into the main series to make a 12-issue maxi like Muddi9000 suggested.

    Also, I think some of the tie-ins didn’t need the FC banner, particularly Rage of the Red Lanterns and maybe Legion of Three Worlds considering they had so little to do with the story.  Still, they were good, so I can’t complain about that much.

  28. Spooky Spooky says:

    I bought the Secret Files…

  29. Conor Kilpatrick conor (@cskilpatrick) says:

    @Jesse1125: I care about all of them.

  30. Tork Tork says:

    Tawky Tawny was epic.  It made me wish for Grant Morrison to start up a Marvel Family series.

  31. TehDave TehDave says:

    @ jesse – i had never heard of sonny sumo before this series, but an ultra-badass sumo wrestler/super hero? how can you NOT be down with that?

  32. If Watchmen was done is 7 issues, It would have been just as Choppy. 

    If Crisis on Infinite Earths was done in 7 issues, It would have made the same amount of sense. 

    Not all writers can be like Geoff Johns and tell a fantastic Story in 7 issues, heck FC needed 4 other issues with it to make sense. 

    All I’m saying is: Final Crisis would have been Better if it was 12 Issues.

  33. @GL2814: If it was 12 issues….then would you be complaining on how long it was? Or that it’s taking to long to come out? I mean if we had 12 issues, we could’ve had even more problems with the artists involved then we already had.

    7 issues was good enough for me, I didnt think it was choppy at all. It felt choppy because you had to read the tie-ins and Didio and the others at DC balantly lied and said you didnt have to do that. At least Morrison had the guts to tell the fanbase you needed to spend more money in order to enjoy this event.

    But I do agree with muddi on some levels, maybe some of Beyond and Last Rites should’ve been integrated with FC. Last maybe a panel or two showing where Superman and Batman is at the time.

  34. Jesse1125 Jesse1125 says:

    Ok , Ok (waves the white flag)people care about these characters, but FC was just not for ME, Superman singing, Captain Carrot , Wonder Woman escaping Darkseid’s grip OFF Panel…….. Meh

     but  I strongly agree w/GL2814 Morrison would have done wonders with more issues (9?)

  35. Sirbhorn says:

    Ok: i Have to compare this to Crisis on Infinite Earths and there is no comparison. Crisis was tighter and better written, I didn’t need to buy all the tie ins. And it was fun. This was almost painful. That being said, I still need to reread it and may understand it better later. But with Crisis almost all the issues had something important or dramatic happen and I really cared with Supergirl and the Flash died. I didn’t even understand what happened to batman because I don’t read those books and the whole miricale machine thing came out of left feild and it felt like the same story as with the cosmic cube and captain america or the JLA/Avenger cross over. Been there done that. Sorry for the tirate, but I regestered with the sight just to get this off my chest.

  36. Labor Labor says:

    Someone asking the question; "do you care about Talky Tawny & Sonny Sumo?" is unimaginably sad.

  37. Gabe Gabe says:

    A great desision I made was when a new issue came out, I would read every issue that preceded it.  THis began cause I forgot who a character was, I think a moniter or somin.  Either way, I really loved this story inna final analysis.  Was hoping the ifanboys would say if they liked it more or less than secret invasion.  In comparison, here, IMO is an indisputibal fact; Final Crisis is very re-readable.  Each time one reads it, they probably will pick up on something new.  Secret Invasion, I do not believe one could read more than once.

  38. @Gabe: That’s a good observation.

    Cause in all seriousness: Secret Invasion is a big. dumb Michael Bay film, while Final Crisis is something that Stanley Kubrick would make. Yes I am serious with that analogy.

  39. Conor Kilpatrick conor (@cskilpatrick) says:

    @Gabe: I think if you watch the shows you can see who preferred which one more.

  40. Gabe Gabe says:

    @Conor  Well, Ron is the marvel guy, and I suppose you are the DC guy.  However, companies aside, for what the stories were, I think it seemed that you liked FC more.  I hope ron reads FC again, and maybe writes something on the site, but I suppose he is a busy man.  Josh, I’m just not sure.  He seemed to enjoy both more on second reading, but I can’t quite tell where he is leaning.  Yes, indeed, Flanagan is quite the inigma.

  41. WadeWilson WadeWilson says:

    Josh’s summary of the series had me laughing. It sounded like a bunch of random things happening that were not connected, which was pretty much how the story read for me too.

    It’s funny to me how all the inuendo of "if you don’t get this story, you’re not smart enough" was flying about, but a guy like Ron who reads & reviews comic books for a comic website, found the story "uninteligable". I think that pretty much sums up the case for any clarity of the story if a guy of Ron’s comic experience found the comic incomprehensible … just like half (or more) of the people who read it & were labled "dumb".

    I didn’t know Final Crisis was such a direct sequel to Seven Soldiers. I never read it & I wonder if all the people who found this story "simple & strait forward" like Conor said (with a strait face) read Seven Soldiers?

  42. Conor Kilpatrick conor (@cskilpatrick) says:

    @WadeWilson: Josh said it was simple and straight forward too.  It is.  Upon rereading all seven straight through.  The delays kill a book as complex as FINAL CRISIS.

  43. Chris Rohling Anson17 says:

    @Labor. Why? Maybe he doesn’t care. Maybe he doesn’t realize that to some people, those are important characters. I’m sure there are plenty of characters you could give a rat’s ass about. Plus, if you’re gonna take a shot at the guy, at least make it "at" him instead of some offhanded remark. It just comes off as incredibly condescending.

  44. selftitled selftitled says:

    Overall i liked final crisis, and am looking forward to reading the "Morrison order" once i pickup the extra issues.  Maybe that will solve my only real problem with it, which was the already remarked upon confusion halfway through issue 7.

    ….And i’ll admit my favorite moment was the Kalibak/Tawky Tawny fight

    "Have no fear darkseid owns the lightning"

    "I beg to differ"

    i did a full on crow/fist-pump, i’ll admit it.

  45. Mangaman Mangaman says:

    @muddi900: if watchmen were in 7 issues I’d be shitting bricks…. just saying.

    But yeah… final crisis should have been longer… and more convoluted too. It wasn’t chaotic enough for me… it would have been extremely fun to see them pull off another marvel/dc crossover in the same storyline XD!! I think Connor’s brain would explode and we’d be left picking up the peices. *has dibs on Batman trivia* 8D.

  46. Sirbhorn says:

    I’m going to wait for the trades to come out so I can understand this.

  47. ed9121993 says:

       No one asked anything yet about the story, so I’m going to begin.For me the biggest consequence of Final Crisis was that  Bruce Wayne is now at the begginning of time (well, not really but very far in the past anyway). Can’t he influence the future from there? And also, WHEN and HOW do you think he will bring him back, IF they do that? I would like Connor to answer that :D .

  48. JedeyeSniv JedeyeSniv says:

    Kinda disappointed by Ron in this episode, if I’m honest. It felt like he wasn’t even going to try to re-read it, which was a shame. Unless he was intentionally parodying some of the haters on the ‘nets when it came out, in which case he’s awesome (but I doubt it). I was glad to see Conor and eventually even Josh admit that the story wasn’t that hard to follow – yeah, i’ll fully admit that the schuduling was totally fucked, but I don’t think even non-linearity can hurt my understanding ofd a story (in fact, sidetrack, don’t you love it when you miss an issue of a book and read around it, only to find the missing issue months or years later? it’s like finding a hidden key-stone to a story, that’s what reading FC felt a little like at time, especially the Batman stuff).

    I don’t mean to attack Ron (love his take on Phonogram for instance), but he couldn’t have looked less interested if he’d tried, why not get somebody with an actual opinion on the book, pro or con, to fill in for him this week? He couldn’t even find a good reason WHY he didn’t like it, which is the most annoying thing to me, especially from a critic. Rip it a new asshole for all I care, but just have some passion! Or at least re-read it before you film a show about it.

  49. @JedeyeSniv

    Why should somebody read something they thought sucked?  I’m not going to.  FC wasn’t so much hard to follow as it was utterly pointless.

  50. Jesse1125 Jesse1125 says:

    @Anson17…… Thank You, …….My major beef was that as the casual DC fan(of which I am) I thought they were "C list" characters(?) and that part of the story did not resonate with me particularly.

    Going forward, Was any of the occurrences in FC (besides Bats) even mentioned in other titles? (JSA, JLA,  Flash, Action comics) Genuine question as I’m really in the dark as far as what was the fallout ( I know about the battle for the cowl, tho)

  51. @Jeese: Other then Batman and a little reference in JSA; no other books have mentioned this Crisis yet. But Didio did say we were going to see the aftermath soon…..yeah cause listening to him tell the truth is like Madoff promising investors millions of dollars. It anit gonna happen.

    @Horatio: Now why do you think it was pointless?

  52. @TNC

    No emotional resonance.  At all.  Lifeless.  Seven issues of dense exposition.  However, I will admit to laughing several times per issue, but I don’t think that was what they were going for.

  53. JedeyeSniv JedeyeSniv says:

    @Horatio Yeah, but you’re not sitting in front of a camera to talk about it. Meh opinions – not terribly interesting. Ron had the opportunity to get some decent discussion going to counter Conors appreciation for it but the best he could muster was a half-interested ‘didn’t understand it’, which is the most played out criticism of a Grant Morrison comic around (next to ‘It’s like he’s on DRUGS’). Which part of the super-people hitting each other did you not understand? C’mon, fight!! ;P

  54. JedeyeSniv JedeyeSniv says:

    @Horatio (again, lol) No emotional resonance? See, that’s interesting, I had pretty much the opposite reaction. The whole thing resonated for me and there were several moments where I teared up a bit. The bit when Barry says "Sorry I was late" kicked me full in the nuts – not only was it pitch perfect characterisation but in one line he cut to the core of Barry and Iris’ relationship, as well as being a minor ‘fuck yeah!’ moment. Also, Ollie and Dinah’s kiss was so romantic, I loved it. For me there were several points throughout where my heart just soared, which is the highest praise I can give a comic I think.

  55. @horatio: I love ya man, but then again I dont agree about ‘no emotion resonance’. (In your theory then my first sentence would be meaningless :P )

    There was a lot of emotional bits in this story. With Barry and Isis, Black Canary and Ollie, Superman….and well I guess everyone in the world (He loves everyone), even some of the supervillains care about some of the characters harsh treatment. Plus I felt sorry for a lot of people and cheered a lot when something went done.

    Again it’s probably a matter of taste but I cant see how you had very little to no emotional interaction at all with this.

  56. Fvckstick Fvckstick says:

    I’m excited to read through it again. I’m reletively new to comics, but am a huge marvel fan. This was the first DC hero book i’ve read. Of course that was a terrible idea, because i dont know anyone from teh universe. But now i’m gonna give it another read and hopefully my LCS will have the couple tie-ins (from reading order) still.

  57. @TNC 

    I didn’t think the 10% of "bits" weren’t worth wading through all the expository dialogue, experimental storytelling, and D list characters for.

    @Jedeye

    Point taken.  Just saying that you shouldn’t be disappointed that he’s not rereading it.  In his mind he may have spent more time than he wanted to on it.  Perhaps he should have been more vocal if that’s the way he felt.  I think maybe he had Morrison fatigue from all the back-and-forth on here and didn’t want to fuel it further.

  58. Jesse1125 Jesse1125 says:

    @Fvckstick…. You sir are a brave man & just remember wiki is your friend(and mine during FC)

  59. Chris Rohling Anson17 says:

    I liked most of FC even if I got sick of peope bashing on its detractors. I’m really excited for the fallout. Someone really interesting is working on the Super Young Team issue, I just can’t remember who. I think it’s the one called "Dance."

  60. Gabe Gabe says:

    Funny that Conor didn’t mention Batman using a gun for the first time ever.  (The forties don’t count!)  Or his kinda sorta death

  61. daccampo daccampo says:

    I think my problems with FC come down to the scheduling issues (mentioned on the show) combined with Morrison’s current storytelling style.

    Yes, I see what Josh and Conor are saying — there is a linear story there that is NOT that complicated. I agree. But Morrison needlessly complicates the story where he doesn’t need to. When Josh and Conor both start mentioning how this or that was dropped and then re-appeared later down the line… that’s the kinda stuff that ruined the narrative for me. It didn’t have to be that way. If Morrison had streamlined his storytelling and focused on the death of the 4th world and the rise of the 5th world, I think we could have had a much clearer story. Some of this is Morrison experimenting with storytelling techniques and tropes. I appreciate that, but: not every experiment works. That’s why they’re called experiments. In this case, I don’t think that weird Mandrakk  Monitor character from the Superman books even had to be in this book. I don’t even think Libra had to be be in it,  honestly. It should have been the 4th world gods inhabiting Earth and trying to take over, adn the super-heroes helping to usher in the 5th world. But many of the staples that we’d expect from such a story don’t really exist in the series– at least not in a way that’s clear to me.

  62. Conor Kilpatrick conor (@cskilpatrick) says:

    @Gabe: I had no problem with him using the gun, I didn’t think it was a big deal.  (And the 40s do count; so does INFINITE CRISIS where he was going to shoot Alexander Luthor until he was stopped).

    And he didn’t die, so…

  63. Gabe Gabe says:

    @Conor  The joker killed Alexander Luther, Batman did not use the gun.  He might have lost his nerve.  Also, I think the forties have probably been retconned out many times over.  Also, he was a charred corpes.  Even though hes not dead, thats a big deal!

  64. Conor Kilpatrick conor (@cskilpatrick) says:

    @Gabe: I did read INFINITE CRISIS.  I know Batman didn’t kill Alexander Luthor, but he was about to.  And Batman being thought dead isn’t a big deal, not to me.  Characters are thought dead all the time.  His body back in the stone age looked perfectly fine to me.

  65. Chris Rohling Anson17 says:

    @Conor. Have you read the introduction to the Infinite Crisis trade? It talks about some changes they made to that scene. Apparently the sound effect was supposed to be him pulling down the hammer and not pulling the trigger with an empty clip. How do you think that changes that scene? Does it mean anything different for Bruce Wayne’s character? I know it’s a bit off topic, but I’m kinda curious.

  66. Conor Kilpatrick conor (@cskilpatrick) says:

    @Anson77: I have read it, and it doesn’t change the scene at all.  Pulling back the hammer is intent to use the weapon.  He’s still weilding the gun.

    Here’s the thing – if the fate of the universe came down to Batman having to use a gun and he refused, then he would be a coward and no longer a hero in my eyes.

  67. I thought Morrison wrote that whole scene perfectly with Batman and Darkseid. Basically stating: I dont like guns, but in your case I’ll make an exception. Conor is right, Batman had the chance to either kill or weaken (so the Flashes/Dark Rider will finish him off unknowningly) the strongest force that is killing the universe….what other choice does he have then shooting him?

    What makes the scene hard for most fans I noticed was: ‘How did Batman get to this point!? Wasnt he captured, and how did he escape?’ Seriously this is where Didio and the rest of marketing fucked up. By basically lying to our faces stating tie-ins werent a huge factor (or you could just read the main event) and it would all be clear….so many people got confused on a lot of things. I got hurt by issue seven when I didnt read Superman Beyond beforehand. So if anything in my view, Didio helped ruin this event and not Morrison.

  68. Chris Rohling Anson17 says:

    @ Conor and TNC – Didn’t mean to seem like I was disagreeing with Conor. The gun thing doesn’t bother me. I was just looking for his opinion on whether or not that changed the scene, or its impact on the character. I’m glad to see someone agrees with me on the change not actually changing anything. On a less off topic note, how did everyone feel about the "Gotcha" line? I didn’t even feel like it was a huge deal until I heard some people screeching about it on some message boards. It seemed like a great way for Bruce to get his little fist pump moment before being omega-sanctioned.

  69. savinglala savinglala says:

    "Here’s the thing – if the fate of the universe came down to Batman having to use a gun and he refused, then he would be a coward and no longer a hero in my eyes."

     That’s hilarious.

     And I really just needed to post and say that I too love Sonny Sumo.

  70. Conor Kilpatrick conor (@cskilpatrick) says:

    @Anson17: I loved it too.

  71. Gabe Gabe says:

    @Conor Is someone struggling with post dramatic stress disorder???

  72. Conor Kilpatrick conor (@cskilpatrick) says:

    @Gabe: ….?

  73. @Anson: I loved that line. Maybe it’s because Batman sorta has suffered from ‘Daredevil Depression’ a lot of the times. Usually he nevers quips or makes a joke unless it’s something hilariously funny.

    Here Batman, knowning he was going to die….wanted to go out with a smile. Bad ass by definition my friends

  74. Chris Rohling Anson17 says:

    @TNC That’s kinda how I looked at it. There’s also a part of me that thinks there’s a part of Bruce that never grew up. The kid he was the night his parents were killed is still in there somwhere. That smug, self-satisfied smile coupled with that line just made so much sense to me in that context. Maybe I’m the only one who thinks there’s that side of him. It’s rare, but I think we’ve seen it a couple of times. I’m struggling to think of examples at the moment. If any come to me, I’ll be sure to post them.

  75. Conor Kilpatrick conor (@cskilpatrick) says:

    @Anson17: It’s not a rare idea, it’s generally accepted that Bruce Wayne is still that little boy.  He never grew up.

  76. Chris Rohling Anson17 says:

    @Conor. Okay, cool. I guess its not something I hear a lot of people talk about so I was never sure.

  77. I could see that Anson….problem is that we dont see writers do it very often or at all. Paul Dini’s Detective run sorta gave Bruce a bit more of a personality. While anything in Batman, for the last god knows how many years, no one has wrote much of a cheery side with that title. I guess that’s why so many people love the Adam West tv show or Brave and the Bold.

    This was an idea I was throwing around after the 7th issue…Would anyone love to see Manhke, Jones, or Pachelo actually do the rest of the series? Think about it, DC could have 3 seperate trade versions where one has Jones finished worked, or have two trades with Manhke or Pachelo showing their artistic side of the story. They would be a good marketing idea in my mind.

  78. Chris Rohling Anson17 says:

    @TNC Jones has already said that he will not redo the pages he couldn’t finish the first time around because it would cheapen the other artists hard work and it would feel like a cheap re-do to him. I really respect that choice out of him. I’d love to see the whole book done with his work at it’s best, but that’s really manning up in my eyes.

  79. @Anson: Here’s my reaction to Jone’s thoughts

    ‘Boo Hoo……You know what buddy? Maybe the other artists work wouldnt be cheapened in the first place if, guess what, you actually finished the damn series! You also know what Pachelo and Manhke had to clear their schedule just to do Final Crisis? Cause you decided to sit on your hands, lie to the company stating you were ahead of the game, and then have the nerve to say ‘well I am not going to be able to finish event’

    If I was Didio, and maybe if Didio could grow some sense, he would go up to Jones and state: Guess what buddy? You cost me money becuase you promised on something you couldnt deliver. You feel the others work would be cheapened? Too bad! You got 4 issues of Final Crisis to hand to me and I dont even care if the event is two months over already.’ Seriously I know that might sound harsh, but it would get the damn point across to a guy like Jones to get his ass in line and start producing work on time.

  80. Conor Kilpatrick conor (@cskilpatrick) says:

    @TNC: You really enjoy accusing everyone of being liars, don’t you?

  81. Josh Flanagan josh (@jaflanagan) says:

    Kilpatrick’s in on the conspiracy!

  82. @conor: Didnt Jones promise he was ahead of the game? That we were told he was working on issue 2 by the time Countdown started?

    Didnt (and you said on the video too) that DC (or Didio in general) said the tie-ins werent a nessicary read? That you could still pick them up, but you could just read issues 1-7 without a problem? That’s a balanted lie right there, cause Last Rites, Superman Beyond, and Submit all were important.

  83. WadeWilson WadeWilson says:

    I’m with Horatio, this series had zero emotional resonance. Batman is my favourite character of all time (in anything, not just comics) & when Superman was holding his corpse, I didn’t feel the slightest reaction at all. Partly because my brain was reeling, trying to take everything in, partly because we all know how much death in comics mean & partly because (also like Horatio) I couldn’t take this book seriously & was laughing at it alot of the time. It became so wacky & bizarre in both "story", style of story telling & characters used, that it was impossible for me to get into it.

    In defence of Ron not arguing his side of the story more, I can totally understand it. After trying to get my side of things across to the Morrison defenders, it’s like trying to argue with a religious fanatic that thier God does not exist — you can’t argue with faith. So it comes to a point where you realise people are not taking in your side of things at all & all you can do is sigh & shut up, like Ron did.

    *sigh*

  84. TehDave TehDave says:

    i’d almost forgotten what the final crisis discussions were like.

    awesome.

  85. JedeyeSniv JedeyeSniv says:

    @TNC – dude, all these tie-ins were written by Grant Morrsion. We, as comics readers should be able to grasp the idea that if a writer is doing a main mini and a bunch of anciliary books to go with it, you should probably be reading them too. It’s not like in Civil War or someting where the tie ins were by other writers, these were by the main archetect of the series. Honestly, experienced readers have nobody but themselves to blame for missing this stuff, it was obvious from the start that it was the case.

    But then again, you don’t NEED the tie ins, except to satisfy the OCD nerd-impulses. How did Batman escape? He’s fucking Batman ffs (and it was mentioned in #5 as well)! Where did supes go? Away, to a seperate story, then he comes back. Who is Mandrakk? Evil monitor, it’s not like there is much subtext you’re missing there. Tattooed man? All you need to know is he has the metron circuit, and that’s only revealed in the main mini.

    @Wade – does this mean we win then? ;P

  86. jono87 says:

    @Spooky I bought the Secret Files as well.

  87. Sirbhorn says:

    Do we know if the trade will have all the important parts in it.

     

  88. @Jedeye: But the guys mentioned it on this video that DC stated ‘you could read the main series and get everything without reading the tie-ins’.

    I’m not saying people should’ve listened to that. Cause your right, some tie-ins for events can be very very important.  But why would DC not state Last Rites, Submit, and Superman Beyond are a MUST READ? Cause they just treated those as just another tie-in.

  89. Conor Kilpatrick conor (@cskilpatrick) says:

    @TNC: I don’t agree that the BATMAN issues and FINAL CRISIS: SUBMIT were must-reads.

  90. @conor: On hindsight Submit really isnt a must read…..but it does explain how Black Lighting and Tattoo Man got to where they were by issue 4.

    But Last Rites is totally important, only cause the readers who complained on how did Batman get out of Darkseid’s machine is explained. It’s exactely how Superman Beyond explained what did Superman do after issue 1, the comic explains how did Batman end up out of the machine and with the gun to kill Darkseid. So in my mind it is a must read.

  91. Jesse1125 Jesse1125 says:

    If any one cares, due out this Weds.(3/25) is the newest issue of JLA where

    "The fallout from FINAL CRISIS leaves the Justice League of America on the brink of dissolution."

    FC#7 released JAn.28— 2months later we get some fallout? with batman on the cover? WTF?

    Sorry DC you dropped the ball (for me)

  92. Conor Kilpatrick conor (@cskilpatrick) says:

    @TNC: Personally, I don’t need any of those things explained for me.  I was able to make the mental leaps in my imagination.

    @Jesse1125: Funny, I dropped JUSTICE LEAGUE months ago and now I"m probably going to pick that issue up because of the FC tie-in.

  93. @conor: That’s true, I mean anyone could just imagine how Batman got out of the machine (like Keanu Reeves), but it would’ve been nice to see at least a panel of that in FC proper. But it’s just a nitpick really.

    Does anyone know if Morrison is writing another comic about the multiverse? I think he, or Didio, state that Morrison wasnt done with the elements from FC.

  94. Tork Tork says:

    I think if anything, a panel of Godfrey finding the empty machine and going "Brah, he escaped!" in 5 or 6 would have helped.  I’m good with the way Morrison set it up, but a little more clarity would be nice.

  95. WadeWilson WadeWilson says:

    @Tork — Your last sentence could be said about the whole event.

    @Jedeye — It’s not about winning or losing, I’m just saying if someone who has a black belt in reading comic books like Ron, found the book "uninteliigable" (along with half of the people who read it) then it obviously has major problems. It’s been real easy for us people who didn’t like the book to be labled as "dumb" or "having no comprehension skills", but I don’t see anyone throwing those insults at Ron, because obviously you can’t.

  96. Chris Rohling Anson17 says:

    I’m about to start my re-read of FC in the "Morrison Order." I’m excited but a little nervous.

  97. chlop chlop says:

    @jimski – House of M is too short and easy, and requires reading more to enjoy it. I read it in a collected form and it was very mediocre. I wish I read some tie-ins to flesh out that world instead of it lasting as long as it takes to blink. Just a X HAPPENED!!! – (story) – Y IS NOW THE STATUS QUO!!! sort of deal. I read what you wrote about enjoyment, but I think it’s regardless of that. The series felt like a highlight reel.

    Great and funny show. Now I know I’ll never read it even though you enjoyed it somewhat. :)  

    @Jesse1125 – Darkseid likes to grope and DC wanted to make FC an all ages book as much as possible.

    @TheNextChampion – depends… do you talk about him now promising to return the money he stole which I didn’t hear him say. If not than he did earn his investors millions of dollars :) That’s why they stayed with him, but the scheme falls flat eventually. The people that now suffer had a great time under him. Should we be sorry for them?

    @JedeyeSniv – a writer should realise that the story in the main issues should be complete and comprehensible and not rely on some of the on-going tie-ins being released.

    @TheNextChampion – he got the gun from his own corpse… And Morrison is writing a Captain Carrot mini.

    @Anson17 – reading FC in the Morrison Order should be called from now on "popping the cherry".

  98. JedeyeSniv JedeyeSniv says:

    @chlop – but that’s my point, the tie-ins weren’t especially necessary to the FC story itself, the mainly state what’s happening on the periphery. I remember being a little annoyed in FC5 for instance when it kinda spoiled Batman’s escape from the machine before the Batman issues had come out. Therefore, I got the info that Batman had escaped before the tie-in came out. The tie in worked as an FC sub-story and as a capstone to GM’s Batman run. It was by no means essential to FC though. And superman, while awesome, wasn’t so much about FC as it was about the multiverse, which FC barely touched upon. It was exporing peripheral issues. The only downside was that it introduced Mandrakk, but even then, you can read FC7 without knowing who Mandrakk really is, he’s just a big bad monster from the bottom of reality who comes out once the universe had been unmade. Simples! If anything, Superman Beyond complicated that simple concept a little. 

  99. @chlop: I would read that Captain Carrot mini in a heartbeat. Mainly because I dont even know who the hell that is, and that Morrison would most likely put a lot of effort into making it fucking awesome.

  100. aleks aleks says:

    I completely understand that Morrison in Final Crisis wants to underplay that Batman is dead since he’s done a Marty McFly but why isn’t the DC Universe mourning for Batman as they did for the Martian Manhunter (with the exception of the splash with Superman)?!!?!?

     I know Conor will disagree and I haven’t stopped buying any of the Batman books for years but Batman always seemed ‘different’ or a ‘bit off’ when Morrison tells the story.  This is the complete opposite to Morrison writing All-Star superman where he totally nails the character.

     

     

     

  101. chlop chlop says:

    I respect what Grant Morrison did with Batman, but "Cow & Chicken" did it first… nobody can top the brilliance of coins as heads.

  102. TopGun TopGun says:

    After talking all kinds of crap about this series I got really excited after watching this episode. I found all my FC issues and bought the second issue of Superman Beyond(which i never purchased because I HATED the first more than anyone you’ll ever meet due to lack of comprehension)

    I just finished reading the frist 3 FC issues and the 2 BEYOND issues and (i never thought I’d say this but) I now officially LOVE this series. so excited to finish it. It’s like reading a whole new book now that I’m taking my time to absorb everything while it’s all still fresh in my mind. Thanks Guys 

  103. davegraham davegraham says:

    In my opinion, Ron’s best episode. Bravo, sir. Bravo.

  104. TopGun TopGun says:

    So i finished reading all of FC in the order that G-Mo suggested (excluding Submit) and I reall really liked it. I’ll admit that some of the details were lost on me but overall i really liked it.

    Question tho…if Darkseid was dieing and was trying to take the multiverse with him why was everyone still trying to kill him. He was already about to die and killing him would have brought the collapse of the multiverse sooner. Like i said a bit was lost on me but overall it was really really good

  105. flapjaxx flapjaxx says:

    Good show. I think some of the above concerns with Ron are misguided. Of course it’d have been more interesting if he reread everything, but it’s not like he’s priding himself on refusing to reread it or anything, or using his lack of understanding to "prove" that FC was bad. Unlike some people here.

    I do think that the flaws of FC run further than its scheduling issues, though. These shortcomings are tied to Morrison’s narrative innovations. I think that becoming increasingly versed in what Morrison’s trying to say about superheroes and their place and cultural significance in 2008/9 Western culture–and all that neat pompousity of his–eventually allows the reader to grasp the flaws at the heart of his argument. Morrison thinks that it’s a given that Superman, for instance, is a folk hero god. But which Superman? A Superman who appears in a comic that few people in the culture can read or understand? FC was supposed to return comics to a lighthearted era, finally repudiating the so-called grim’n'gritty era once and for all. But while all this high-fallutin’ stuff of Morrison’s was going on, selling barely 100,000 copies per issue, the flagship of grim’n'gritty–Watchmen–sold like a million more. Sort of ironic. Just because Morrison says, or wants, something to happen doesn’t make it so–especially not when he tells the story in such a way, and when editorial schedules it so frustratingly.

    But it was an innovative series. There’s no denying it. It did, tried, and suggested things that few if any mainstream comics like this have ever done. I think that was missing from the iFanboy show: the acknowledgement that FC was something different and new. That there’s never been anything quite like it before and (to Morrison’s chagrin) there probably will never be anything like it again, for some good reasons. But it’s uniqueness was, for me, ample justification to read it, despite it’s flaws. (Hm, read this or read just another one of the many technically sound decompressed superhero soap operas that rely on the same old easy-to-understand, made-for-the-tv-mentality narratives? The choice is clear, unless you’re just a pig consumer going back to the same troth for the millionth time.)

    Josh’s reactions here were the most interesting. I don’t fault him–or anyone–for this, but when you’re the type of guy who reads 20 comics a week, I can see where it must have been nie impossible to have appreciating FC while it was coming out. The advice to "reread it all again" is sure to be helpful to most. But, jeez, I’m at a loss as to why people wouldn’t've already known enough to reread the previous issues before the next one came out. Because of the delays you guys had enough time. I probably reread all previous issues 2-4 times before the next issue came out. But I had time; I wasn’t reading 20 other comics every week. I can see where if you’re reading 20 decompressed, typical superhero comics each week, most of them catering to the same easy-to-understand, read-it-in-5-minutes-say-how-great-it-is-then-never-have-to-read-or-think-about-it-ever-again mentality, and then you try to read the latest issue of FC, then you’d be understandably confused and frustrated. And that’s not a shot at anybody. Really.

    I am surprised to see some of the same posters here still arguing the same points, though. Let it go. FC wasn’t for everybody and had huge flaws; but FC did do great, unique things and it wasn’t anywhere close to incomprehensible.

  106. @ Flapjaxx: "most of them catering to the same easy-to-understand, read-it-in-5-minutes-say-how-great-it-is-then-never-have-to-read-or-think-about-it-ever-again mentality,"

    I know what you mean here but if I may retort. There are some comics that many lump in this category that do benefit from a re-read. That’s why I re-read practically everything I buy (I don’t buy many comics). A re-read will often reveal subtleties I missed on first pass. This increases my enjoyment of books that I would otherwise lump in the "same ol’ thing" category. A re-read makes me realize that though it may "look" like the same ol’ thing, it isn’t. For this reason, I eagerly anticipate/dread listening to the iFanhosts’ thoughts on Pilot Season. One of the winning books was so beautifully understated that it didn’t register on many reader’s radar. Yet it was masterfully written and splandidly innovative. This connects to why I find Final Crisis and the surrounding hoopla frustrating. Innovations that are loud and flashy get more credit/attention/praise than subtle yet equally brilliant innovations. In fact, the latter tends to get lumped in the "same ol’ thing" category. As a fan of the latter type of innovations, this annoys me to no end.

    Dig?

    Tangent: Prediction = Ron will be intrigued but not amazed by the "understated" winner of Pilot Season, will pick up the series when it comes out and love it enough to make it a POW.

  107. Addendum: Also annoying is the common conclusion jump that a philosophical/unusual/complex message automatically makes a given work of art superior. I find simplicity under-rated. Something simple can be just as profound/sophisticated as something complex. Not saying any of you are drawing that conclusion. But just sayin’…

    Anyway…

  108. Chris Rohling Anson17 says:

    @JumpingJupiter, You tend to say pretty much everything I want to say right before I’m about to post it. Dammit! Brilliant stuff you just tacked up there. People tend to make it an either or thing when there are tons of books out there doing amazing stuff that isn’t quite as flashy. I enjoyed Final Crisis on my 2nd read through, but there are books that I enjoy way more on a monthly basis and when I re-read them that are doing fantastic things with the medium. I also don’t understand why some people on this site act like everyone treats comics as a disposible form of entertainment. My friends and I are always trading issues, re-reading things, and talking over our favorite moments, characters and plotlines.

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