The Inferior Spider-Fan

(HEY: I’m about to spoil the last arc of The Amazing Spider-Man. At this point, though, I am approximately the 483,000th person/media outlet to do so going back at least three weeks, so if anything is spoiled for you at this point you should be less angry with me and more impressed with yourself. Whatever system you’ve got going is working for you. Either you had an amazing Christmas Blackout Extravodkaganza, or you really need to think about reading the paper more in 2013. Current events, informed citizenship, etc. Anyway: this was a spoiler warning.)

"Wait! Don't go without an exit strategy!"

“Wait! Don’t go without an exit strategy!”

There is at least one good piece of news to come out of all of this: I guess there has been a huge influx of New Readers this year after all. No one who has bought more than two comic books in his life could possibly get upset about this Spider-Man storyline.

For those of you just now tuning in, The Amazing Spider-Man #700 and the issues leading up to it were about the death of Doctor Octopus. Otto’s demise has been much discussed in the last few years, but as the reaper finally drew near a couple issues ago the good doctor Shyamalanned us all and revealed that he’d swapped bodies with Spider-Man on his deathbed. Peter Parker was now trapped in the failing, imprisoned body of one of his most hated foes with mere hours left to set things right before his heart gave out and left his enemy with his family, his love life, and an extra fifty years on the clock. Against impossible odds, Peter pushed his mind and body to their limits, using all the wits and resources at his disposal, and in the end when all seemed lost double Shyamalan all was lost and he died on the asphalt. A character we had spent years hating was now Spider-Man. Peter Parker was dead.

Except… c’mon. Come now. Let’s get hold of ourselves for a moment.

Forget the fact that Marvel is trying to sell bedsheets and Underoos. Forget that there are cartoons and two lucrative film franchises starring Peter Parker that someone behind a very nice desk on a very high floor wants the comics’ stories to strongly resemble in the interest of market crossover. Forget that the company has already killed off one Peter Parker in the last eighteen months and is not about to go Peter Parker free the year the franchise turns fifty. You cannot believe– you cannot seriously believe– that Dan Slott, perhaps the biggest Spider-Man fan in the world, would be handed the reins of his lifelong dream job and then celebrate by murdering Spider-Man on the asphalt. Even if Slott himself were a sadistic criminal mastermind, Marvel would make it their mission to undo any damage the minute he left the book, perhaps even starting by helping him locate the exit. I promise, the people who make Spider-Man comics every day of their lives are sort of attached to him.

Now, those of you with long memories who notice my byline exists instead of leaving comments that begin “I agree with the author here” may be saying, “Jim, were you not the one who just a few months ago ranted that the standard ‘comic book death is a revolving door’ complaint is a bunch of hogwash, and that comic book deaths are mostly permanent these days?” Yes. I did rant that rant. I stand by everything I ranted when I was ranting it.

But… come on. Unless you’re new to fiction, you know this is going to be a unique, cockeyed look at who/what Spider-Man is by some of the best in the biz that lasts for a handful of arcs, resolves itself, and then ends. You probably still have your black armband from the Superman funeral in a drawer somewhere. Even if you don’t, I assure you the people at Marvel remember what happened the last time they replaced Spider-Man and didn’t know when to end the story. Ben Reilly: dead sixteen years and counting. (Wait, which of my points does that make?)

You may be saying by now– or may have been saying by four or five paragraphs ago– “We know. You don’t need to tell anyone this.” You wouldn’t think so, would you?

Did you happen to see the Twitter messages Dan Slott started getting when this news broke? He saw ‘em, and then he gave someone else his Twitter password and went offline until after the next book comes out.

People were all-capping him about ruining the book/ the character/ their childhoods (apparently still ongoing)/ all hope for the future. A guy promised to find him and jam a pencil in his eye. An anonymous stranger heard the news and threatened to kill him over it.

Threatened to kill the real man, you understand, in retaliation for the imaginary death of the fictional man. Plotting one of those deaths is reversible, and plotting the other is legally actionable. You may have heard Joe Quesada’s old observation that some fans treat the characters like they’re real people and treat the creators like they aren’t; this is that, taken to its logical conclusion.

lucy yanks the footballYes, I’m sure not a few of those angry tweets were from people who read the USA Today article online but haven’t seen a comic book since they outgrew Betty & Veronica. Something about that site sends out a homing frequency to people who like being mad at strangers. Still, there are somehow these people who hear about a shocking comic book plot point and, no matter how many times it ends up resolving itself, fall for it

every

single

time.

There’s this guy (skip to 2:30) and this guy (“Steve Ditko is rolling over in his f***in’ grave!”) and this poor guy. They don’t look like young people. They seem to have been reading comics for a long while now.

They can’t… they can’t really think… can they really…?

The guy in that last video says he’s mad enough to stab a guy. I don’t laugh as hard at that stuff as I used to.

 


The author here” is named right at the top of every article he writes. I mean, honestly.

Comments

  1. i am still pretty torn on this. I like the story that Slott has been telling, and frankly i think he did a much more interesting job at handling things than Bendis did with the demise and all.

    For me, Peter Parker=Spiderman, so its tough to take half the character away. On Slott’s most recent Word Balloon, I interpreted his comments in that he has no intention of ever bringing Peter Parker back, which kinda bummed me out.

    I”m a realist and know Marvel can and will bring him back the second sales numbers dictate they need a bump. Just one magic spell/dimensional rift/time travel thing away from it happening.

    I do find it bizarre that Marvel has such a preoccupation with killing off this character. What he ever do to you guys?

    • Grandturk says:

      I didn’t listen – but that’s probably just the standard response. “I have no plan to bring him back,” is the same as when you’re CEO says “We have no current plans for reductions.”

      Whenever they say that, the opposite always happens.

      Now me, I’m actually only on like 697 or so… but I’m in it for the story. Just – there’s been so many bad resurrections lately (Cap’s was about the worst) – I hope they can find a good twist for this.

    • i don’t recall the exact quote, but he kept going on and on reinforcing it which was the source of my bummage. the term “He’s Professor Xavier dead” was used, whatever that means. haha

    • diebenny diebenny says:

      I listened to the conversation (another great one, Jon!) and took it more how Grandturk describes.

      I know he was trying to sound ominous and serious about Pete being dead, but you can’t really say “Yea, we have plans for him coming back,” when you’re in the middle of launching this new direction.

    • i’m sure he was upselling a bit. Yeah you can’t really let alone about major future plans if you are trying to sell this story right now. Gotta avoid the fans who are all “oh then i’ll just wait for Parker to come back”

    • cubman987 cubman987 says:

      Slott has also posted some things on twitter and said things in other interviews that really makes me think he already has a plan for the story in which Peter comes back. Of course, he can’t just say right after ASM #700 that Pete will be back but I from what I can tell about Dan Slott I don’t think he wants Peter to be gone for long.

  2. diebenny diebenny says:

    Yeah, I don’t get all the hub bub. Even if you ARE new to comics and can’t see through these kinds of things, I felt the issue was just a great read. Then the Avenging issue that followed it up? Even better. I can’t wait to see where they go with this. It’s already been a lot of fun, and we’re only at the beginning. Slott and Yost are MY Spider-Man writers.

    Plus, just to knock this one outta the park: STEGMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • HankChinaski says:

      I’m with you on this. It sounds like Slott has a lot planned ahead for how to explore things like “What does it mean to be a hero?” and issues of redemption. Otto having Peter’s memories definitely plays to this because we’ve already seen in these last two issues that he is distressed and uncomfortable with carrying the weight of what Peter has had to face in his life. I give Marvel credit for making such a controversial move, and Slott credit for potentially damaging something he loves to explore the nature of character. I’m in for the ride.

  3. I couldn’t agree with you more. Obviously, peter will be back before too long. I just hope they keep him away long enough to really explore this angle on the character. I think it’s a concept that has a lot of potential and could be very interesting. I just want Marvel to give Slott the time to really explore this story.

    The fans reaction to this just reinforces why I don’t go to conventions or hang out in comic book stores. I love comics, but dislike many comic fans :(

    The reaction Slott has gotten from these people is disgraceful. He is a human being and doesn’t deserve that. I, for one, have loved every second of his run and want him to stay on for as long as he wants to do it. He doesn’t deserve the abuse, he deserves praise and THANKS for the fantastic job he has done and the commitment he has shown to long form story telling.

  4. TomiH TomiH says:

    Everyone seems to have a strong reaction to this one way or another, but I’m pretty neutral.

    Sounds like an interesting change to the status-quo, but I’m not a fan of the creative team (wait, Ryan Stegman is drawing the new series, right? I might check it out then.)

  5. Also, i have to say, i think the treatment Slott has been receiving over this is just awful. The death threats were just shockingly pathetic. Fellow comic book readers, next time you want to get all pissed off about comics to that point, look in the mirror and say F-I-C-T-I-O-N-A-L C-H-A-R-A-C-T-E-R-S to yourself a few times so you can reground your brain in reality.

  6. BC1 BC1 says:

    In other words, nothing has changed since “Death in the Family” when people thought DC had killed off Burt Ward?

  7. Zeppo Zeppo says:

    May I play devils advocate for a moment and put the counter argument forward (however please note I do not condone the threats Dan Slott received, that was a little silly).

    The reason I am disappointed by this story is that I wish to buy a product Marvel are no longer selling, and saying that they have no plans to sell again (of course I don’t believe them) but I would like to read a story about Peter Parker, the underdog of the Marvel universe. When Bruce Wayne or Steve Rogers died there where still stories being told with those characters in some form.

    At a time when Marvel are telling iconic stories with their other characters it seems an odd choice to put out a radical interpretation of their most iconic character. Do they think new readers, fans of the movies, will respond to this?

    I have no interest in reading it as an ongoing when money is tight. I will say the design of the covers and the art look amazing, but it is asking me to suspend too much disbelief that no one can tell the difference between Peter and Otto. Slott is not writing Otto mimicking Peter, he’s Otto, and the Wolverine’s and Daredevils of the world should figure this out quickly, MJ certainly should. It’s a premise for an arc, not an ongoing.

    • Metamorphic Metamorphic says:

      I think you make some good points. And I say this as someone who has not read Spider-Man since “One More Day” because I didn’t want to read about a Peter Parker who would make a deal with the devil.

      But death threats? I can’t believe society has gotten to the point where people literally utter death threats over fictional stories. Sad.

    • i think its valid to come to a realization that you don’t want to read a story where your guy has been *replaced* by another character wearing his costume. That’s the one thing about big 2 superheroes that so many of us love. We’re coming back because its comfort food, not necessarily the new experimental thing. We go other places for that.

    • HankChinaski says:

      And everything you say here is all to be explored in what Slott is writing. Do you honestly think that Slott hasn’t asked himself these same questions? He knows what he is doing and I’m almost certain when this is all done a lot of fans will be eating crow.

    • diebenny diebenny says:

      I’m in an opposite place. I reach this overflow threshold with any media (movies, music, comics). If it’s the same thing, no matter how good it is, I already have that. I don’t want any more comfort food.

      I do that in my own work too. Everything needs to be an experiment of sorts. Everything I do, I try a little differently each time, and play with the format. Everything needs to be able to stand on it’s own two feet because it’s different and special. If it all starts seeming the same then I get bored. I hate it when someone strikes gold and then decides to rinse and repeat till they suck the life out of a project. People like that one thing you did? Don’t just do it again. Change it up. Stretch your legs a bit and see what else you can do. Become better.

      I do think you pose a valid point, I’m just in a different place.

    • Zeppo Zeppo says:

      I think there should be room for experiment and room for comfort food. Not one or the other. I love what Bendis is doing in Ultimate, but I don’t have much faith in Slott to replicate that with Otto.

      I don’t want experiments to solely be conducted outside the big two. The big two should be experimenting. I know Slott is interested in exploring the meta aspect of the reader hating spider-man as opposed to the marvel universe hating spider-man. We’ve switched places. This is an interesting idea, fun for a month or two, but as the only Spider-man title?

      They know that the only way to sell this is as the sole Spidey title, if it was a mini out of continuity to one would read it. I’m going to save my pennies and by an omnibus of back issues or something.

    • @zeppo–yes i completely agree. The big 2 should be experimenting more. I think they are a bit afraid of the backlash since they know so much of their fanbase wants a lot of comfort in their books and characters.

      That being said i’m still onboard with what Slott is doing….great story so far. But i think its ok to be bummed that Peter isn’t around for the time being.

    • Bluestreak says:

      That’s a fair perspective to have. but the people gripping about it aren’t making that point.

  8. oblivious247 says:

    Of course I know none of this is permanent. I know all of this will be resolved in a few story arcs time. I don’t need that explained to me, and frankly i find it rather insulting to my intelligence. My problem is not with Peter dying. It’s with Doc Ock taking his place. I was on board originally. I was okay with someone else being Spider-man for a while. I’m not okay with that someone being Doc Ock. You guys have fun. I’ll jump back on when this is resolved.

    I do agree that Slott doesn’t deserve death threats and other such ridiculous reactions.

  9. flakbait flakbait says:

    Who doesn’t like a good old fashioned brain swap story?

    I’m starting to notice that there are two groups I fans I like: older ones, in their 40s and 50s who can still experience joy and fun, and the fresh faced young kids. There’s this block in the middle, in their 30s, who grew up on ’90s bullshit and whose sense of quality is just completely jacked up. I meet scores of these guys at my LCS who just whinge non-stop about the dumbest things. I don’t even know why they read comics at all. I get it a little, because I’m in their age group and it took me a while to realize that good things are good, but yeesh.

    • IthoSapien IthoSapien says:

      There’s a clerk at my LCS, all he does is rag on Marvel all the time for a plethora of things. Yet he reads mostly Marvel comics. He even complains how stupid AvX was but read every issue (also tried to get me to read it,pass). I’m not gonna guess his age, or say that’s the reason he does those things, but I find it really odd. If Marvel bugs you that much, switch to DC or something. He’s still a cool guy to talk to, his Marvel rants just get old.

  10. HankChinaski says:

    Loved the article Jim. In fact, even with Slott’s interview over on another site you get the feeling this story has legs but those come to an end at some point. If this was a legit complaining group complaining about a poorly written story (The Clone Saga was a horribly written story) I could get the complaints, but it wasn’t poorly written. If anything, the reaction proves that it was well written because it took so many people (not myself) by surprise. As for the death threats, with the recent shootings in Newton I find that this is just indicative of American culture where somewhere along the line we’ve gone from arguing a point to, “I’m going to kick his ass” to, “I’m going to kill this guy”. It is sick really and it is a cultural ill in this country that needs to stop. I had my gripe about a recent change at Marvel (Avengers Arena) and it is one I still stand by because I think the entire idea is a cheap cash grab, and as I guessed the story is kinda weak (I read the first issue to give it a chance…and loved Hopeless’s Cable and The X-Force btw). Instead of attacking the writers (I did post to Twitter my disappointment in the move) I simply decided I won’t be buying or reading the title. If you don’t like or care for what Slott has done then drop the book. It is selling well so a few readers dropping here or there won’t hurt it. Come back when, as you said, Slott is sure to bring Peter back if it makes you feel better. But these death threats are just insane, and I hope these people are being prosecuted to the furthest extent of the law.

  11. The “AMAZING” Marvel Now! teaser will no doubt be out sometime this month. It was the same with the launch of ALL NEW X-MEN and the “UNCANNY” teaser that soon followed. And the launch of SAVAGE WOLVERINE and the “SNIKT” teaser that followed. They will have Peter Parker in AMAZING and this new weird Otto/Peter hybrid character in SUPERIOR. And maybe they’ll double ship both of them.

    • BC1 BC1 says:

      The problem is, barring a clone body (GASP), the Peter in Amazing wouldn’t look like Peter. No, when Peter comes back, it will be in his body and the current occupant will be forcibly removed. I mean, we’re already seeing this come to fruition (Avenging 15.1 when Ock’s HQ didn’t recognize his new body). Also, a realm of the dead has been firmly established, and it has been firmly established that people can leave there (the FF went to Heaven and took Ben Grimm back to Earth, Hercules showed a gateway to the Underworld in an Atlantic City casino where the dead can randomly be resurrected if they hit the jackpot). So, Doc Peter will be gone after a while and Peter will take his place, no worries.

    • Good points. My guess is that we somehow end up with Peter in Peter’s body, Doc Ock in Doc Ock’s body, as well as the Peter/Otto mash-up personality (a new person in essence) in a third body. The myriads of ways this could happen is only limited to one’s imagination; it is comic books after all. But I see SUPERIOR as an ongoing series with this new character as a permanent part of the Marvel Universe. Speculation obviously, but that’s my prediction of how this plays out. And I bet it plays out within a time frame of well less than a year.

  12. VichusSmith VichusSmith says:

    Spider-man isn’t dead though. Peter Parker(‘s body) isn’t dead, either. Why would he have to be brought back for the anniversary?

  13. IthoSapien IthoSapien says:

    I’m alittle confused by who is behind the majority of death threats, old time readers or people who don’t even read comics? The same thing happened when Miles Morales took over USM, and that was shameful (Someone behind the book responded with “it just proves why it needed to be done, fair point). If you don’t read comics, I don’t think you have a right to complain what happens in them (Death of Cap, Death of Robin, Spidey in parallel universe is biracial, Alan Scoot is gay, etc). Maybe that’s elitist or something but it’s how I feel. It took me awhile to come around to Slott’s writing on ASM, for a the first couple of arcs I thought he was really overhyped. Spider-Island turned that all around. As long as this isn’t Matt Murdock turns evil because he’s possessed by a demon (Didn’t read that arc, heard and believe it turned out terribly) it’s something new that’s done well then I’m good. Doc Ock isn’t so much a straight up villian recently, so I think he might make for some good hero material. An about the Marvel U changing to match the movies, stop it. The movies should be more like the comics (exciting, full of interesting characters, diverse locations), and Marvel execs trying to push everything to reflect each other annoys me when it probably won’t even acheieve the desired results: New readers drawn in by the movies.

    • VichusSmith VichusSmith says:

      The people behind those death threats consist of idiots who enjoy the freedom of anonymity and use it to be outrageous and immoral.

    • IthoSapien IthoSapien says:

      Right but the author Jim Mroczkowski seemed to imply all or most of the threats were by older comics fans, but when the Miles Morales thing happened I could tell that most of the outrage came from people who never touched USM. I’m one of those weird people that likes to ask why and how stuff works. But yea to everything you said @VichusSmith.

    • VichusSmith VichusSmith says:

      Yeah, the Ultimate Spider-man backlash also spread out into the mainstream, who know Spider-man most from films or other non-comics material.

      This has to go deep with people who’ve been collecting this for decades at this point, and for people who want to see Spider-man ultimately make it through OK.

    • IthoSapien IthoSapien says:

      But he always does tho, always. He gets knocked down, dusts off, and gets up again. Rinse and repeat for 70+ years.

  14. RobotZombie RobotZombie says:

    I am willing to see where the story goes because of course Peter Parker will be back as Spider-Man.

    I am not sure I buy that, even with memories, Doc Ock would be able to convince everyone that he is Peter Parker.

    I also don’t like the idea that this is just a set up to revert Spider-Man back to “status quo” – kicked off the Avengers, hated by everyone in the city, unemployed etc.

    • Zeppo Zeppo says:

      Spider-man and Wolverine have to be on the Avengers. Hickman said he had to use the movie 6+Those 2. It’s unlikely that even if Spider-man is public enemy number one he won’t appear in Avengers.

  15. I’m more upset that we got an entire year of not-Peter Parker spider-Man stories, with the hero a psychopathic murderer and a REALLY sketchy/potentially rapey relationship with Mary-Jane Watson. Sorry, not my idea of a fun book. I’ll be back when Peter returns in time for the new movie.

  16. BoyWonder1 says:

    While i’m not excusing the stupidity of those fans who are dishing out death threats to Dan Slott and acting as if they are going to riot over the writing direction of a comic book, I can definitely understand why some readers are so upset because to put it bluntly I wasn’t too thrilled with issue 700 myself.

    Yes Jim, i know that deaths in comics are rarely if ever permanent. Yes Jim, i know that most likely Peter Parker will somehow, someway make his return someday. But that doesn’t excuse the fact that Slott wrote a horrible comic and that with every “death” and “necessary resurrection” done in comics for a quick cash grab the entire concept of death in comics becomes less and less credible and instead turns into one big joke. We true fans of Spiderman shouldn’t have to wait through a year or more of crappy experimental writing to simply get back to where we were in the first place.

    Peter Parker is one of those characters that is more than just colored ink on a page. For most of us, we grew up with him. He’s more a friend or family to us than just “some comic character” He’s a piece of our childhoods and a little bit of what made us who we are today. And characters that are that iconic, even if they are killed off, DESERVE a better sendoff. One done with respect and care that leaves a sense of acceptance in fan’s hearts. This was NOT a case of that.

    First of all the whole “Freaky Friday” Body Switch storyline has been done to death in comics. i mean seriously….THAT’S the best concept Slott could come up with to send off one of comic’s most iconic superheros? Secondly, it’s the WAY this all ended that I take offense with. Peter dies after “failing” to win his last battle. It wasn’t as if he made a heroic sacrifice to save those he loved. He didn’t even get as good a send-off as Ultimate peter Parker who at least fought the good fight to finally end the Green Goblin and protect his loved ones. No….he simply fails.

    And am i to be believe that suddenly a man as evil and cold as Doc Ock is suddenly going to just have an ephiany and decide to become a hero simply because of seeing another person’s memories and feeling what they felt? Doc Ock is a classic Narcissist and raging Psychopath. I just can’t buy the fact that he’s going to go from trying to bang Mary Jane, Kill Peter and his loved ones and pretty much take innocent lives at will to being Spiderman and picking up where Peter left off. It just doesn’t do the characters justice that countless writers have developed so deeply over the years. I mean….this all might make for one hell of an issue of What If, but as a permanent change I’m just not into it.

    It would be like The Joker becoming Batman. Lex Luther becoming Superman. it’s just…..blasphemus to me. Again…..I know it’s only temporary. But Why should we have to go through all this at all? Why not kill off Peter with a great story and give Spiderman a reboot that true fans can get behind instead of trying to be edgey and dark? I’m not going to protest outside of Marvel over this but I won’t lie, it IS very dissapointing.

    • diebenny diebenny says:

      I disagree with everything you’ve said here, especially considering the story hasn’t even really begun, but I’d just like to say this:

      I would read the fuck out of a Lex Luthor becomes Superman story. Great idea, dude.

    • Walterama says:

      Jim, I have been reading comics for over thirty years, have bought many more than two comics, and this current storyline still annoys me. And that is my right, just as it is yours and others’ right to think this storyline is “superior” to other ones. I don’t feel the same way, and it is not because I am some fresh-off-the-turnip-truck reader. I know this current path will all turn around in due time and that the Peter Parker will be back in Peter Parker’s body again. However, in the meantime, I am not interested in reading about Doctor Octopus living in Peter Parker’s body and will be responding as such with my dollars. I am not making death threats against anyone and clearly grasp that these are fictional characters. There are some of us that just think the storyline sucks. And as I do with other titles when I think the stories suck, I don’t plan on buying it for awhile. However, please don’t lump me with the crazies that are threatening bodily harm to Dan Slott, etc., over it. I just don’t plan on buying any stories that are happening in the current vein. It is no doubt for reasons that other people have mentioned being dismayed – e.g., grossed out by old Ock cavorting with young Mary Jane; people close to Peter not immediately thinking something is off with him (though I am sure this is going to happen over time); or the implausibility that a villain that just last tried to burn the world down is now through some wacky mind-meld going to suddenly want to be a hero, even though he is still doing things like gloating immediately after having murdered one (??)). I also am annoyed by the fact that Peter in this treatment did not get a proper send off if he was going away (like he definitely did in the Ultimate universe), as well as annoyed by the marketing of this change with the villian-turned-hero somehow being a better Spider-man than the version that came before. Puke. Blah. No thanks, and I will see you all when the “real” Peter Parker comes back.

    • BoyWonder1 says:

      Hey it’s cool if you disagree. Everybody is entitled to their own opinions. and thanks for the compliment on the Lex turning into Superman angle. I’d probably read it too if it were a “What If’ scenario or maybe a story-arc done over a few issues. But Once again i’d think it would be a horrible thing if it was done as a stand alone comic.

    • Walterama says:

      Sorry, BoyWonder1, for putting my main page reply in your thread. :-P

      Suffice to say, you can tell I am in your camp. I do not like the current storyline but at the same time, I am not losing my mind and concept of reality over it.

      With that said, I am dismayed that folks like you or I that do feel that this storyline is awesome are characterized as crazy newbies that don’t know how comics work. Heaven forbid that we might disagree that the latest take on the character is less than wonderful.

    • Walterama says:

      Read – “With that said, I am dismayed that folks like you or I that do NOT feel that this storyline is awesome . . .”

      I apparently can’t get the hang of replying today.

    • Huysmans Huysmans says:

      Walterama, BoyWonder, thanks for the great posts. You just explained everything so clearly. I’m 100% backing you up there buddies.

      I think the problem nowadays is that people are fine with bad art & bad writing, and buy these badly executed comics with great joy… As in every other hobbies, bad quality sells a lot, and true art struggles… No surprise Dan Slott thrives in this kind of market…

    • diebenny diebenny says:

      Huysmans, you are officially my new favorite IFanboy commenter.

      I think you’re second paragraph describes me perfectly too. I just can’t describe it, but for some reason I love terrible things. The worse they are the more I end up liking them.

    • Huysmans Huysmans says:

      @Diebenny. I made a quick check on your pull list. How you can like Saga, Happy or Daredevil (by Waid) and liking it to the same extent as Slott’s fanfic is beyond me. At least there’s hope in your case ;) . Keep loving me!

  17. Zeppo Zeppo says:

    This is one of the times I enjoy being a member of this site. I think the debate is lively, well thought out and respectful to those involved at Marvel.

    I’ve seen this topic turn to name calling in other places very quickly, and am glad we can keep it civil here.

  18. mikegraham6 mikegraham6 says:

    I’ll say this much, i havent read Spider-man since Big Time launched and i’ve never really liked Slott’s writing style but this concept sounds interesting enough that I’ll at least be checking out Superior #1. I’m all for shaking up the status quo in order to deliver interesting (AND NEW!) stories

  19. cubman987 cubman987 says:

    Great article. You would really think that this would all be common sense to anyone who reads comics but apparently not. And as it is, I loved ASM #700 and I am really looking forward to seeing how Peter comes back, I really think it will be sooner than later too, I’m sure Slott already has the story ready to go.

  20. JokersNuts JokersNuts says:

    I couldn’t agree with this article more. I am LOVING Slott’s run and the Doc Ock storyline has been wonderful and exciting. Really a lot of fun. My buddy and I were talking the other day about how any fans getting upset over this must have been either born yesterday, or just started reading comics in the last year.
    Just enjoy the ride people, it’s a lot of fun.

  21. trobinson79 trobinson79 says:

    The answer to this “controversy” is really simple – if you like it, keep reading. If you don’t, don’t buy it. That’s how you tell publishers what you want. Why can’t these nutjobs who think a creator destroyed their livelihood get that? Definitely does not justify threatening that creator’s livelihood for sure.

    • diebenny diebenny says:

      Totally. When did we go from “I just am not that into this” to “I’M GOING TO KILL THE WRITER!” ?

      It’s okay to just not be into a story, writer or artist. Beyond that you start veering into Crazy Town, and we all know how horrible that Butterfly song is.

  22. Anville Anville says:

    Oh my. Those video rants are… wow. Very amusing, and a bit scary in their vehemence. Loved the shelves behind the first guy.

    The Peanuts panel captures the situation perfectly.

    With regards to the comic story, it seems like it will be a fun ride for a bit. My own prediction is that we’re looking at a Peter who *thinks* he’s Otto, and that situation will gradually fade as the ethically/morally “superior” Peter re-surfaces.

  23. Josh Flanagan Josh Flanagan (@jaflanagan) says:

    Those videos are performance art, right?

    • Will Magnus Will Magnus says:

      After watching those videos, it makes me wonder if I’m not passionate enough for comics. Of course, if I ever get that worked up about the stories, I’m walking away from them.

      The drama needs to stay in the comics!

    • BCDX97 BCDX97 says:

      Those are the kind of guys that are terrifying if they start talking to you in the comics store.

      Youtube + angry nerds = humanity at it’s worst.

  24. Huysmans Huysmans says:

    Jim Mroczkowski, could you PLEASE stop s*cking Marvel’s balls and be honest? The Superior Spider-Man is a terrible idea AND an insult to Spider-Man as a character.

    Do you fricking expect us to long for a character who was a villain is entire life AND continue to be one just because he is lying to everyone about his true identity and past?! Is THIS now the definition of “heroism”: killing a hero and stilling everything from him, and then pretend to be a good guy????????

    F*ck that. Have at least some integrity, Jim. You can’t tell us you get bored with comics and then explain us that a bad idea (and a poorly executed one) is awesome.

    ’nuff said on my part.

    • Huysmans Huysmans says:

      And just to clear things a bit : i don’t agree with the threats concerning Slott and I’m not against killing comic characters. What I’m against is poor writing, bad storytelling and awfully played-out twists that bore me to death. That’s why I’m against the entirerity of Slott’s run AND especially his whole ASM #700 nonsense.

      That Ifanboy gives credit to a hack like Slott and that some websites call his prose “poetry” and what not, makes me cringe and cry.

    • diebenny diebenny says:

      I think someone likes that Butterfly song.

    • MisterShaw MisterShaw says:

      Yeah, villains turning into heroes never works. Except for Deadpool, Hawkeye, Emma Frost, Rogue, Black Widow, Venom, Quicksilver, Magneto, Catwoman…

    • Jim Mroczkowski Jim Mroczkowski (@jimski) says:

      Do I at least get credit for typing all that with balls in my mouth? I couldn’t even see. Zero typos.

    • Huysmans Huysmans says:

      @MisterShaw: Just to take the example of Catwoman for instance, because to me it’s the most significant: Catwoman turned into a hero and THAT works because she did it coherently. She didn’t have to kill Robin to then pretend being a good guy. She just made a choice, while keeping her personality. Doc Ock, on the contrary, achieved a “hero status” through evil actions. Does this sound like okay to you?

      This debate actually is the whole beauty of a piece of art like Watchmen. At the end a “hero” turns into a “bad guy” for “heroic purposes”. It is never implied that this character is or isn’t a hero. That’s where lies the whole interest of the story: how one can act in a horrible fashion and yet be craving for good.

      Here Slott takes what could have been an “interesting” situation and just destroys it with bad writing. No thinking, no subtlety: na, we have to buy Ock is “superior”. No debate within ASM 700 nor Avenging Spiderman 15.1. Just plain food for zombies. THAT’s the real shame I’m pointing out: how bad the writing is and how it spoils a situation that could have somehow worked.

      @Jim: Yeah, I’ll give you credit for that. Since I can’t praise your thinking process nor your honesty, I guess I should give you this candy.

      **COMMENT MODERATED**

    • Conor Kilpatrick Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:

      @Huysmans: Okay, your over-the-top rage has been amusing so far, but you need to cool it with your personal attacks and insinuations about our integrity or you’ll find yourself bounced out of here.

    • mikegraham6 mikegraham6 says:

      @Huysmans You definitely have some interesting thoughts on the matter, would you mind recording a youtube video explaining them to all of us?

    • Huysmans Huysmans says:

      Everyone’s a critic…

      I have not seen thy sunny face,
      Nor heard thy silver laughter:
      No thought of me shall find a place
      In thy young life’s hereafter -
      Enough that now thou wilt not fail
      To lsiten to my fairy-tale.

    • MisterShaw MisterShaw says:

      It sounds OK to me in that I’m interested to read where it goes, sure. I’m positive that Marvel editorial isn’t going to let the world’s last child-friendly superhero be a douche-canoe and get away with it.

    • RoiVampire RoiVampire says:

      @Huysmans Liking a story you don’t like doesn’t mean @Jimski lacks integrity. Insinuating that a complete stranger has performed a sex act on the non-existent body parts of a multimedia corporation does however mean that you lack it.

      Good day sir.

    • Huysmans Huysmans says:

      @mikegraham6: no need for youtube video, when some Twitter users are already making me more famous than Kardashian ;)

      @MisterShaw: I agree about being interesting for what’s coming next. I won’t buy nor read the Superior Spider-man (or I really wouldn’t be coherent, would I?) but I do understand the interest. Such as it was interesting to see Dick Grayson being Batman and so on.

      @RoiVampire: Well, I also respond here to your comment below. The “sex act on the non-existent body parts of a multimedia corporation” part was made not only concerning this article, but also concerning the stance Ifanboy took: you can’t praise Vaughan’s sage or say that “comics are dying” and in the same way give a great review of the badly written Slott’s story. Also, you can’t treat readers of being “INFERIOR” (please go check the title of this article) for not agreeing with Jim.

      That is why I DO question the integrity out there. Ifanboy used to be sharper and me being annoyed here is more a proof of how I highly consider this website rather than not. But I’m sick of this website telling us about “event fatigue” and what not, and then explaining us how good the comics are nowadays. Why not praising what is good (Saga, for instance) and pointing out what isn’t (ASM, for instance).

      I don’t question the pleasure one can have by seeing a new direction. Again, what I do point out is the badly executing writing, storytelling and lack of respect. Did I somewhere write “you are bad for being excited?”. No. But telling me I’m “inferior” because I think Slott’s run is bad litterature isn’t okay either.

      Finally, of course, one can like something the other doesn’t. But what are we here for? Saying that everything is relative, and end of discussion? Or trying to use our rational knowledge of good litterature and comparing it to what is now being delivered in comics? I READ ASM #700, I read Slott’s run, because I wanted to give him credit. I judged it bad and poor, not for being a hipster, but – guess what – because I love comics.

      Ifanboy tells us how “tired” it is of gimmicks (like “Peter Parker dying and probably coming back later”) but in the same way tells us those gimmicks are great. That startles me. To say the least. Hence the questioning on how honest it truly wants to stay. Because I. just. don’t. understand then!

    • RoiVampire RoiVampire says:

      @Huysman Ok now we’re getting somewhere. I think the main problem you’re trying to reconcile is separating iFanboy the site from its writers. Not all of them are going to be in agreement on everything. Also he’s not calling people inferior for not liking it, he’s calling people inferior for overacting/making death threats/thinking this will last forever.

      Also, and this isn’t hyperbole, I haven’t seen SAGA praised higher on any other site. The guys at iFanboy love them some SAGA. And yes, it is possible to like SAGA and ASM #700. Your opinions on what makes storytelling poor are still, no matter how you dress them up, your opinions.

    • @Huysmans The entire iFanboy community is pretty high on Saga. I think its been a Pick of the Week 4 times out of 8. Hard to find common cause with that argument.

      I totally disagree with the idea that we can “use our rational knowledge of good lit(t)erature” to somehow arrive at an objectively good standard. This makes no sense. Art and literature, anything creative is open to subjective criticism. If you hold up a seminal Spiderman or comic story as the greatest and then judge everything as being good or bad based upon it, you’re probably going to be disappointed a lot.

      I’m not a fan of the Superior Spiderman concept but if I hear its good I might look into it down the road. I doubt it runs that long. Double shipping, I give it six months and two trades. Parker’s back in time for the ramp up to Amazing Spiderman 2.

    • Huysmans Huysmans says:

      @RoiVampire: I know about the great praise on Saga; just take a look at all “The Bests of 2012″ and Saga always ends up first! ^^

      I think, to conclude this discussion, that I can bring 3 points:
      1/ We’ll have to agree to disagree about “what makes storytelling poor”. It’s a philosophical problem, and I know it’s okay to be on one side of the fence or another, but I think a rational canon for Beauty and Quality does exist, and that it can be used to “judge” pieces of art. I’m not saying you’re wrong when saying “opinions are opinions”, just that it is a philosophical stance to either pretend you can rely on criterias to discuss of literature, or not. It’s all fine and good here.

      2/ I agree about separating iFanboy and the people. I always say it’s important to differentiate ideas/things from people, and it’s not okay that those seemed the same in my comments. Generally, I tend to be very shocked at the low level of quality culture websites seem to be okay with nowadays.

      iFanboy is an exception from this general statement, and I would be sad to see it agree too much with the Big Two for the sake of agreeing. Hence my ranting. I was for instance glad to read Ron wasn’t praising Lobdell for his work on Superman (which isn’t good. Wait & see but until now it’s not really the best). Not for the sake of disagreeing with Lobdell’s work, but just because his writing isn’t okay for now on, and that it should be pointed out. Thanks for that, and I was happy to see this bold move.

      3/ Anyway, the whole “separating things and people” makes me think also about one thing. I’m sorry if I offended someone, I do agree my first comment was “blunt”, to put it that way. Take it as a proof of my passion for Art and this website rather than rage, which it isn’t. I learned a long time ago understanding my mistakes was important, so, from the bottom of my heart: sorry for the blunt form.

      Also, I’m getting afraid of one thing. @Mikegraham6 talked below about “homophobic comments”. Mike, I sincerely hope you didn’t take the “sucking balls” that way. No homosexual person should be mistreated or hated. I want this to be said clear and loud from my part. I used what I consider being an English expression just as that, and if it sounded like it was also an attack on a whole community, please be assured it wasn’t. You have the right to consider me being a “dork”, but I’m a nice person, or at least I ain’t for sure a hater who freely condemns entire communities on posts.

      I deeply hope if any feelings were bruised on that particular chapter, they aren’t anymore, because the hate homosexual persons have to endure is an awful scandal that I don’t want to nurture, even only through misunderstandings.

    • mikegraham6 mikegraham6 says:

      @huysmans don’t worry, my comment about homophobic and racist rants wasn’t directed at you. I was referring to the uproar around the changes made to Alan Scott Green Lantern and the Mile Morales Spider-Man

    • Huysmans Huysmans says:

      @Mikegraham6 Okay, thanks Mike. I was letting this page open on my browser while working late, because it seriously made me sorry to think I could have brought sadness concerning this particular societal issue.

      People being angry/violent concerning Alan Scott and Mile Morales, it’s beind words for me. I think there’s always that kind of crowd in any hobby or community (it’s not specific to comics), and I try to move past that. I trust the comic community to be respectful in those particular regards.

      Don’t let yourself get pushed further by these people! They don’t deserve to have even the tiniest impact.

  25. MutantSentry MutantSentry says:

    I don’t know what Slott has up his sleeve, but here is my thought on how this will be resolved.

    Doc Ock’s mind transfer thing didn’t work. But it did create an illusion of working. What it did was create a template of his mind that is layered on top of Peter’s mind. (And vice verse in his own mind). Eventually the template will fade and this “Otto” Parker will start acting more and more like Peter until we get an issue that mostly takes place in Peter’s psyche as he fights off the last remaining vestige of Otto’s template. He will be left with the memories of what he did while under the influence of this template. Essentially this is Peter under a hypnotic delusion of being Otto with Otto’s memories downloaded into his mind. I even think there was foreshadowing of this. “Peter” Octopus was acting a LOT like Otto at times when he was ordering his villain crew around. And even before Peter pushed his life in front of Otto Otto was getting flashes of it. That’s my thought anyway. And cause I’ve still got some of my scholarly impulses to site sources I should say I have read a similar false mind swap storyline in the FANS! web comic over a decade ago…

  26. WTarkington WTarkington says:

    Ditko lives!

  27. KRYPTOTIM KRYPTOTIM says:

    Not raging or anything but stupidity like this , is why I have cut way down on my comic books . Thanks to Marvels questionable storytelling decisions I have bought about 3 marvel titles in 3 years . If they continue this crap I won’t even buy that many .

  28. Heysideburns Heysideburns says:

    Wait!? Captain America and Superman died!? But I read them every month, and they seem to still be Steve and Kal? Mind=officially blown.

  29. RoiVampire RoiVampire says:

    Something to keep in mind, especially you @Huysmans, just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean someone has to hate it too. Just because @Jimski thinks this storyline is worth merit doesn’t make him lack integrity or make him a liar because it’s all a matter of opinion. Somewhere out there is a human being that thinks Boondock Saints is the best movie they’ve ever seen in their entire lives and y’know what? They’re right.

    I have been reading Spider-Man comics for as long as I’ve been able to read and I can’t wait to see what this storyline has to offer because as much as I love Peter Parker I also love the world that Marvel has built around him. I love the supporting characters, the allies, the villains and for awhile it will be really interesting to see them interact with this new Peter.

  30. Heysideburns Heysideburns says:

    Wait again!? I thought Ben Reilly has been Spider-Man this whole time!? All my comics are meaningless now!

  31. mikegraham6 mikegraham6 says:

    It’s sad for me to say but fan overreactions like this, the whole fake geek girl debate, racist and homophobic rants about changes to fictional characters, have pushed me further and further away from comic book fan culture. I used to be one of the biggest comic fans around but more and more lately, I just find myself to be embarrassed to be associated with them. It’s starting to feel like a poisoned culture that I don’t really want to have anything to do with let alone take part in. Granted I guess it’s my own fault for paying attention to stuff like this. But if I could, I would absolutely love to collectively slap a large portion of the comic reading audience (most present company excluded). Honestly folks, it’s not worth your time and energy to get so worked up over this crap. Read what you like, avoid what you don’t and whatever others like should be none of your concern.

    • i know exactly how you feel and find myself in a similar place. “no, no really i’m not like THOSE guys”

    • KenOchalek KenOchalek says:

      I’m probably (hopefully?) echoing a sentiment from one of the longer posts elsewhere in the thread, but I like Mike and Wally and agree with them, so it’s going here.

      My biggest issue with any fan of mainstream superhero comics (and Spider-man, in particular) that feels threats of violence or death are at any time acceptable is clearly missing THE CORE PRINCIPLE OF SUPER-HEROES.

      And that is to do the right thing, show some depth of character and solve your problems using your brains more than your fists. Heroes don’t pick fights or act like victims. They take responsibility for their words and actions. They may have shortcomings, they may make mistakes, and they may fail to meet these ideals from time to time, but they always learn from these setbacks and continue the struggle to be a better person.

      If you’ve read even a small number of super-hero comics and haven’t figured that much out, I think you’ve – at the least – wasted your time and money.

    • sitara119 sitara119 says:

      @Ken
      right on.

  32. With decades of stories on these characters its tough to get new ideas and concepts. I like that Marvel is trying something new even if its not necessarily my cup of tea. But the reflexive hatred to novelty is off putting. Its not for nothing that the image of comic fans in the wider world is of the collector, meticulously preserving stories in plastic. Some act like curators of ancient tomes that reflect all that was ever good in world literature. Ancient priests reflecting on holy texts that are beyond reproach and all new interpretations are heresy.

  33. Mono0521 Mono0521 says:

    Web of Spider-Man #8 was the 1st comic book I ever read and it was giving to me. Peter Parker/Spidey is my favorite comic book character of all time. I have seen him threw the good and bad years. I have fell off comics and made my way back. I know Pete will be back to normal soon. It was just hard FOR ME to see Doc Ock in place of Peter Parker in some of the most iconic parts of his life. That really threw me out of ASM #700. I’ll go along for the ride and hope Pete comes back with a bang and gets ride of all the crap Ock added to the Spideysuit.

  34. Walterama says:

    First, I want to start from the point that I think the sensible among us can all agree that anyone on either side threatening death or bodily harm to a writer over the storyline or to another comic reader for their opinion about it is insane. Starting from there, I also feel that anyone that does not agree that this Superior take is the best story ever is getting a bad wrap in comments that I have read on this site and on other sites (whether other comic sites or regular news sites; though I am not claiming to have read everything on it). I agree some have gone too far here to prove their contrary point, but if you are going to take them to task, I also think you have to take Jim to task for saying that just because I or others like me don’t like this storyline (i.e., are “upset”) that we know nothing about comics and just picked them up yesterday. I mean, c’mon. No one that is on the majority side this time has ever been on the minority side at another time with how you view a storyline? Would it be cool to call you a dolt in that instance and that you have no idea what you are talking even though you are a longtime comic reader? As RoiVampire noted, just because something isn’t your favorite doesn’t mean the other guy who likes it is know-nothing idiot either, since we are just talking about comics here after all. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it, which is what I plan to do in this case. But in the same breath, I don’t think the other guy is an dumb a-hole for liking it and wanting to ride it out either. One last note , I still find it a little funny that some folks are busting people’s chops for emotionally reacting in opposition to this particular storyline when I think it is pretty clear in the comments that a number on the other side are also pretty emotional in their support for the storyline. So why one way is okay and the other isn’t to some on here I am not sure?

    I assume that Jim’s main point to the article was that people going way over the top regarding reactions to this event are pretty crazy, and I could not agree more. (I would put death threats here right up there with people being severely distraught that they were going to have to wait for their new comics because Hurricane Sandy happened [and people died].) Still, the way he opens seemingly characterizing everyone who dislikes this storyline as a misinformed novice is not fair either.

    • Walterama says:

      (edit – “bad rap”)

    • Conor Kilpatrick Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:

      “I also feel that anyone that does not agree that this Superior take is the best story ever is getting a bad wrap in comments that I have read on this site and on other sites (whether other comic sites or regular news sites; though I am not claiming to have read everything on it). I agree some have gone too far here to prove their contrary point, but if you are going to take them to task, I also think you have to take Jim to task for saying that just because I or others like me don’t like this storyline (i.e., are “upset”) that we know nothing about comics and just picked them up yesterday…Still, the way he opens seemingly characterizing everyone who dislikes this storyline as a misinformed novice is not fair either. ”

      Not only is Jim NOT saying that, I don’t know of anyone really saying that here in the comments. (Though I could be wrong, there are a lot of comments.) The people who Jim is talking about, the people we made fun of on the podcast, are the people who are freaking out thinking that this is somehow a permanent situation and not just the latest bad situation that Peter has found himself in. It’s the people flying off the handle and posting ridiculous YouTube video and threatening Dan Slott with bodily harm. No one here at iFanboy is attacking anyone for finding the story bad or not thinking it’s the best thing ever or for even not being interested in the story. That’s ridiculous. Hell, I’m not even reading it because it doesn’t sound interesting to me and I don’t really like Dan Slott’s writing. It’s perfectly fine to not like the story. It’s the acting like Peter Parker is gone forever and acting like Dan Slott is a war criminal that Jim took to task here and that we took to task on the podcast.

    • jpriester73 jpriester73 says:

      Walterama I think I get where you’re coming from. I’ve gotten the since that people who just don’t like this as a story get lumped into the group with the crazies. It’s almost like the crazy reaction people have had to this book has kept the media from giving it poor reviews. I kind of feel like Slott is getting off easy by critics because of the public abuse.

      Spiderman isn’t my favorite character. I’ve only been reading comics for 2 or so years and the only 616 Spiderman titles I’ve read have been written by Slott. Death in comics are some of the cooler stories I’ve read (Human Torch, Captain America, and Batman).

      With that said I think this twist is not a great story. It seems like a gimmick. Most of the Spiderman stories I read by Slott seemed like gimmicks so I dropped the title. What upsets me most is I feel like this gimmick kept him on this book when I thought Marvel Now! would get Slott off Spiderman.

    • diebenny diebenny says:

      Despite my differing opinion on the quality of Slott’s spider-man stories, I do think you may be onto something, jpriester73. People who would have slagged the book pretty hard on subjective(!) critical merits are more likely now to take it easy so they don’t feel lumped in with the youtube crazies and their death threats.

      See, for both sides, haters and lovers, we’re all affected by these nut jobs.

      And Walterama, you ain’t one of the crazies, you’ve just got passion. Don’t let anyone confuse the two, and stay passionate. We (I) may come off as dickheads, but at the end of the day it’s our differences that make us awesome.

    • Walterama says:

      jpriester73 and diebenny – Thanks, guys, for getting some of my main points about lumping, etc., and also acknowledging that it is okay to have a normal level of passion about something that is make believe. :-P These stories in comics, just like in other books or in films, resonate with us all emotionally to some degree or we would not even be wasting our time with them. At the end of the day though. most of us know it is not real and do not let it ruin our real world day. Truth be told, I rarely engage in these conversations in person at a comic shop or on the internet, because I avoid most people that are way more serious about this stuff than I am. I made an exception this time because I felt this one a little more this particular time than others because it is long-standing character who I have put my time into and since I did not like the way this one went down (regardless of the fact that I know like everyone else that it eventually will all be returned to normal for this big of a character). I know as well that the main point of the article was that the over the top people take it too far (on either side, although I have not read of any Slott face tattoos, people sending him restaurant.com gift cards, etc. because they loved the storyline), but in my read there was a little sentiment in the article and in the comments that anyone that was a normal level of upset about it was also goofy as well, did not know the medium, and so forth. That was mostly what I was reacting too. And thanks for not thinking I am crazy for that.

      jpriester73, I definitely agree that some of the death stories can be cooler ones and when done well are great reads. On that level, mind swap and such aside, why I have not liked this one is probably that I don’t feel (so far) that those great reactions, dialogue, etc. from surrounding characters over this “death” storyline get to happen here. No one knows he is dead and gets to react accordingly. I don’t get terrific pieces like Franklin talking to Spidey about missing his uncle, and Peter trying to connect with the kid to take the pain away. So far it has been the supposed death of a major character without the consequences of that because no one around him knows he is dead. True some of these things will likely happen eventually, but for now, Aunt May, Mary Jane, and others don’t get to react accordingly after losing a great character like Peter in their lives. Instead they have this skeezy guy in his body acting like him in a less than heroic way pulling the wool over their eyes (for now). That coupled with Marvel marketing telling me “The new Amazing Spider-Man has arrived and he is better in every single way. Smarter, stronger… Superior!” because he can act with less of a conscience and probably in less heroic ways, just bothers me as I noted earlier. But that is just my take here. Maybe this will be awesome and I am wrong. For now, it just seems to lack for me what has made some of these other reversible death storylines compelling, while at the same time not substituting with a character that is more superior even though they keep trying to force feed me that it is. I am not going to argue whether the mind swap happened, didn’t happen, etc. as some are on here and just take the face value for now. I hope you are all correct and that this is great chapter for a great character, but I just don’t feel that way at the moment. And that is okay too.

    • Walterama says:

      * jpriester73 – In my last statement to you about why I also did not like the story along with you, should have wrote “I hope they are all correct . . . ” since you are in the same camp of not being particularly excited by the storyline either.

  35. Walterama says:

    “No one who has bought more than two comic books in his life could possibly get upset about this Spider-Man storyline.”

    That seems a pretty blanket statement to me. I did not listen to your podcast so can’t comment on that only and only based that statement on how this article opened. Granted he is clearly talking about the over the top group later, but that is not how he opens.

    • Conor Kilpatrick Conor Kilpatrick (@cskilpatrick) says:

      You’re taking one line out of context. That line relates to the rest of the article in which he elaborates on what he is talking about in that line.

    • Walterama says:

      That is fine if that is how you view it. I said it was not fair how he opened the article so I was clear on what part I was reacting to. I even agreed what his overall point was in saying that getting overly emotional to the point where you are threatening others is ridiculous. However, I think it is very important that your opening lines when writing an article are not ambiguous as to what you mean, especially when it sets the tone, and I think it was somewhat ambiguous here. I think even you would agree In the realm of “upset” exists being dismayed over what has happened to a character you like as in this case. It seems that some (not all) in the comments are acting like people are wacky though even for having this normal response to these stories. People get bummed or exhilarated over a book, cry at a movie, or a supercharged when leaving an action film all the time. In some of the comments, however, it seems certain folks are hitting people that didn’t like this story at a normal level (which if not being somewhat “upset” then what is it?) a little harder than those that are on board with it. That coupled with how the piece opened just got to me. Hence, my remarks.

    • Walterama says:

      I am sure all of this thread reads more supercharged than I actually am over this topic since it is text online. And in that sense, I am probably being taken out of context. :-)

  36. zombiemoses zombiemoses says:

    its possible i love what dan slott did because of all the crybabies out there who hate it, but i am really excited to see where he takes it and how it returns to peter eventually. spider-man has always been my favorite and most related-to comic hero, and i feel like if i can be ok and on board its hard for me to understand why other people are so jaded.

  37. BanjoDuck BanjoDuck says:

    Holee crap, those videos are stressful! I don’t think I’ve ever been that upset about anything, and my dad died, my girlfriend broke up with me and my dog died, all within 3 months of each other (back in ’05). I’m glad to see that aside from a few really aggressive people in these comments that many of them are approaching this realistically. Go iFanboy community!

    • RoiVampire RoiVampire says:

      Same thing happened to me in ’02, minus the dog part. I think if a pet had died as well it would’ve broken me. Watching these videos makes me wonder if these people have experienced real actual loss in their personal lives or if they just understand death through the lens of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.

  38. KevinAB KevinAB says:

    I honestly don’t get why people are upset here. Oh wait, I do. It’s because they are not using their heads and are simply looking for an excuse to be mad.

    Am I seriously the only one who read ASM #700 instead of reading an article about it?

    Since I just might be, let me point something out to everyone. Repeatedly throughout the arc, since the revelation of the “mind swap,” when Otto Spider-Man and Peter Octavius would talk to people they would every so often “slip up” and use language that they found alien to them. For instance, Peter Octavius called the Trapster an “imbecile” and then thought “Weird. I even sound like Doc Ock.” Do you understand yet?

    Here let me hold your hand and lead you through the final exclamation point. When Scorpion prepares to attack Aunt May, Otto Spider-Man jumps in the way and shouts “NO! You will not harm that dear, sweet lady!” Why does he say this? Oh, right, it’s because he was engaged to Aunt May during a weird storyline in the long, long ago. Of course, it makes sense, but WAIT! What’s this?!? All of a sudden Otto Spider-Man has a flash memory of Aunt May telling Peter Parker as a child that she loves him. He has one of Peter’s memories BEFORE the octobot stuff. Otto Spider-Man thinks “What the hell was that?” Even he is baffled.

    Now, are we all on the same page? Yes? No? Maybe so? Okay, fine, fine. I will spell it out for you….

    THEY NEVER SWAPPED MINDS. SPIDER-MAN IS STILL PETER PARKER. DR. OCTOPUS WAS STILL OTTO OCTAVIUS WHEN HE DIED.

    What happened was that Doc Ock simply “brainwashed” both of them using the technology he said he “mind swapped” them with. Yes, Peter Parker believes 100% that he is Otto Octavius, and as he was dying, Otto Octavius believed 100% that he was Peter Parker. They weren’t though. Sure they had all the memories of the other person, but those were simply implanted memories. So, yes, right now Spider-Man believes he is Otto Octavius, but an Otto Octavius that has gone through everything Peter Parker has gone through and come out a better person for it. Thing is though, underneath that, it is still Peter Parker. The real personalities would bubble up during the arc, hence the dialogue slips and the weird memories. Under the surface, everything is the same. It wasn’t subtle people. SO get over it.

    SPIDER-MAN IS DOC OCK AS MUCH AS YELLOWJACKET KILLED HENRY PYM. They believe it, but we shouldn’t.

  39. Here’s the thing:

    I don’t care if Peter Parker is dead.

    As long as you write a good death scene, I don’t give a flying crap who is under the mask. Case in point: The way Bendis handled the ULTIMATE Peter Parker’s death was fantastic. Well it started off stupidly, with Punisher shooing him by accident. But the swan song of him beating his arch nemesis in Green Goblin and then saving the people he loves as well? That was a fantastic way to write off the character.

    With Dan Slott, I didn’t think he wrote a justifiable way to kill Peter off. He just died because he was stupid enough to get his mind switched by Doc Ock. There’s no redemption and now we have a villain taking over his life. Well he WAS a villain until Slott wrote a contrive reason to make sure Ock won’t go too over the line with being Spider-Man now. To me, that was just being lazy because if you wanted to make Spider-Man a villain that could have made for some good stories.

    So I don’t want anyone grouping me with the same folks who are wishing Dan Slott dead. Those fans are downright crazy and should be ashamed for going that far in their criticisms. But I am not a fan of this death because, I think anyways, Dan Slott wrote it pretty poorly. That’s all.

    • jpriester73 jpriester73 says:

      Completely agree with everything you said.

    • diebenny diebenny says:

      Haha, I feel completely the opposite in regards to Ultimate vs. Amazing Pete’s deaths. The Ultimate death felt like a means to end, to me, and had no emotional weight to it, in my opinion, till the follow up mini-series (which everyone seemed to hate… but I loved… hmmm… I think I must have bad taste). I actually felt the weight of Slott’s switcheroo, even though I tend to agree with those who theorize that he didn’t really die and is just slightly brainwashed for the time being.

      Hated the Ultimate death, loved the Amazing. I’m a weirdo.

  40. jpriester73 jpriester73 says:

    Though I’ve said multiple times I’m not a fan of this story and the fact that people who don’t like it get looped in with the crazies, I think it is hilarious he calls the book trash but has it bagged and boarded for his collection.

  41. Fanraeth says:

    I’ll be honest, I can’t stand Dan Slott’s Spider-Man and haven’t read an issue since the Spider Island nonsense. Still, when I heard about this storyline, I just kind of rolled my eyes and sighed. It’s a terrible way to kill off Peter. Death threat worthy? Not even close. Peter will be back in a few story arcs.

  42. sitara119 sitara119 says:

    wow. so Doc Ock is in Peter’s body. this is news to me. however, i knew something was up with Spidey when i read the last page of DD the other week. this explains a lot.
    in avoiding twitter, i have managed to side-step a lot of grief over the idiocy of fanatics who choose to contact creators in regards to their own personal “feelings”.
    i’m a fuckin’ genius. :D

  43. sirfox89 says:

    I’m pretty sure the whole “soul particle” thing on page 35ish (page 20 in digital) is the answer to how this thing is all going to wrap up. I’m a longtime fan of Spider-Man but a pretty new reader of his comics, and I don’t see the big problem with all this. It’s just a story, it’ll play out, and Peter will be back. As long as the writing/characters/story is cool and compelling, then there’s nothing to complain about.

  44. ClasikRok ClasikRok says:

    First off, let me say that I am a HUGE Spidey-Fan.
    Secondly, forgive me if something if I state here has been said elsewhere in these comments (there are just TOO MANY to read them all).

    The Death of Doc Ock/Peter Parker storyline is a brave and bold tale and I congratulate Dan Slott and Marvel Comics to dare to tell such a story. It is interesting and different and I am very excited to read Superior Spider-Man in the coming months.

    Of course Peter will be Spidey again before long. There’s no chance that won’t happen. Think about it. Otto Octavious’ consciousness may be alive and well withing Peter’s body, but Peter’s memories are in there as well. What is someone’s mind other than their memories? Before long Peter will start to surface within his own body and either Otto will be pushed out, or they will come up with a way to give him his own body, and voila…Peter is Spidey once again.

    I can’t understand why people get so upset by things like this. It’s one thing to say, I hate this story and I’m not going to read it, but to threaten bodily harm on somebody just because you don’t like the story their telling…No wonder these shootings and subway pushings keep on occuring…People are slowly going insane here in the US. If you don’t like what Slott and Marvel are currently doing with Spidey, then JUST STOP READING!!! If enough people drop off of the book, I’m sure Marvel will decide to bring Peter back sooner than planned. In them meantime, you can read 50 years worth of Spidey comics where Peter mind is firmly in place in his own body as the Amazing Spider-Man.

    Me…I’m looking forward to reading the adventures of Doc Ock in the body of Peter Parker…after all, he is supposedly Superior. Let’s see if he can prove it.

  45. BanjoDuck BanjoDuck says:

    @RoiVampire I totally agree. Obviously they’ve learned from Wrath of Khan that they way to vent your frustration is to scream into a camera, so that’s why I propose Youtube have a rule that if you are going to post a video of you screaming about something, it has to be from an overhead camera, so that you have to scream upwards for the entire video.

    Also, maybe the only time I was as upset as those guys on those videos was when my Ricardo Montalban impersonation troupe/acapella gospel quartet “Khan I Get an Amen” didn’t get that gig playing at my best friend’s wedding.

  46. JSAkid JSAkid says:

    Good points Jim and Quesada’s quote is true. People are just ridiculous, I laughed when you said they fall for it

    Every.

    Single.

    Time.

    When will people this naive stop? Never, oh well but we can tell em it’s a plot twist to draw sales to the book and might end up being a good story, and there is a time machine in ASM a cpl years ago that Spider-Man 2099 can use to revert Peter Parker back to Spidey standing at Doc Ocks death bed 2 yrs from now and really watch him die, thats a really good idea, I should write that story, Marvel call me…or better yet Dan Slott can borrow the idea to stop getting death threats. ;)

  47. APoetSomeday APoetSomeday says:

    I stopped reading Marvel in 2007/2008 after being a lifelong fan. I’d been reading trades mostly, as I had no access to regular comics and no money at all.

    I stopped because just felt as if no story they told ultimately mattered to them.

    Stories that I’d really loved were reversed in the most ridiculous ways (Grant Morrison’s ‘New X-Men’ – which I unashamedly loved and Kevin Smith’s ‘Daredevil’ run were both victims of these silly cuts). To make matters worse, every new issue seemed to be Issue 1 again. Everything kept getting retconned to such an extent that no ‘shock’ was ultimately ‘shocking’ anymore. Peter Parker could go from being a married man in his 30′s and mourning a dead Aunt May to being in his 20′s and single, living with a cop while his (formerly) frail Aunt May househunted for her own place…In the space of less than a year.

    On the heels of that trick, a resurrection is easier than dialing 1-800 Lazarus Pit.

    I found that if I picked up a Marvel comic, having not read the book for six months, I’d have no idea what was going on. Marriages would be overturned, dead characters would be alive again…Nothing had any permanence whatsoever. On the other hand, DC was putting out ‘Blackest Night’ and Morrison’s ‘Batman’ run. I fell into those stories pretty easily, even though both involved major story changes (Sinestro has his own Corps now? Dick Grayson is Batman? Bruce Wayne has a son? I remember saying aloud).

    Anyway, I know, Barbara Gordon can walk again and Jason Todd now lives, but at least that was a reboot and it didn’t involve any decades long secrets or ‘it was all a part of Green Goblin’s plan’ baloney)

    I eventually gave up on Marvel, following three distinct points:

    1) Peter Parker unmasking himself as part of Kingdom Come, I mean Watchmen, I mean Civil War.
    2) ‘Old Man Logan’ taking a beating from Hulking Hillbillies and groveling in the dirt in front of his family (I mean, seriously!?)
    3) I really, really hate Disney (but that’s another rant entirely).

    Anyway, I’m not trying to start a flame war on this thread (honestly, I’m really not), but people getting mad about it is completely silly because it probably won’t matter in six months’ time.

    Marvel has some incredible talent like Jason Aaron, Brian Bendis, Mark Waid and so on, so why not just leave them to it and trust that even if Mr. Slott has gone insane and murdered his favorite character (though perhaps only for contractual reasons) that it won’t matter in 10 issues time anyway? Honestly, it really won’t.

    I half expect ‘Uncle Ben’ to come back from the dead with a new powerset after it turned out that he wasn’t really dead at all but he went off with the Starjammers in order to…You get the point.

  48. Andrew Andrew says:

    Glory be! I’m the sucker here because it didn’t occur to me that such a story point in an inherently ephemeral overall story would cause such stir. I wasn’t able to get the to store two weeks ago and plumb forgot to get 700 last week, so I figured I’d just pick it up today and that there would be dozens of copies left. Sadly (for me), I was wrong and they’ve completely sold out, even though the store I frequent is huge and the only comic I can recall being sold out was Chew #1.

    In any case, I know what happened, so maybe I’ve just saved $8, but it tickles me that sooooo many people hated #700 before it was released that it sold like gangbusters, especially considering that it does cost $8. Seems kind of steep, considering so many folks apparently purchased it already knowing that they’d hate it. Having now read Superior Spider-Man I can see how a reader could be displeased with this direction, though this seems to be essentially a story that could have been told starting in issues 463, 587, or 639 and lasted a year, but it just happened to be saved to be told around an anniversary issue and a temporary #1 that isn’t the first and won’t be the last.

  49. APoetSomeday APoetSomeday says:

    By the way – lol @ the dude in the first video “this issue F****d me in my a** with a three foot dildo and no lube!” what a review!

  50. The same guy that made the last video that you posted (the stabby guy who looked like he was going delirious with rage) also has not one, but TWO 15 minute videos where he rants on the Nickelodeon Kids Choice Awards in a similar fashion.

  51. JoeyBear JoeyBear says:

    This is killing me. Love or hate the story, whatever, but at least LET IT FINISH before you get up in arms! Jean Grey would NEVER turn evil, this is stupid, I’m never buying this book again! Obviously this guy is just trying to move a few more copies and then it will all go back to normal in a year or two. (This comment looks awfully stupid about 5 years after the Dark Phoenix Saga ended but its the equivalent of what is being said about Skirts and Spider Man right now). Let the man finish his story before you decide to Lynch or lionize (sp?) him please.