It’s 2013. Do you know where your geeks are?
Keepin’ it real.
Could you spot a fellow traveler in this day and age? There was a time when someone would be described as a “comic book geek” and every listener would have the same more-or-less accurate mental image conjured for him, and that image had to come from somewhere. Whether he was conforming to the stereotype or bringing it to life, I used to see That Guy hovering around the “New Releases” shelf every week. Lately, though, it occurs to me that I would not presume to strike up a conversation about comics even with someone I met standing in a comic shop, at least without getting a good look at their purchases first. Some people just come in for the Pocky. (And who can blame them?)
Do “geeks” even exist anymore? Obviously, I know there are subcultures that obsess about the minutiae of relatively unpopular corners of pop culture. But who cares anymore, really? Does any adult really think less of another for liking Avengers comics in a world where their movie has made more money than the Vatican? Isn’t anyone who wears a nerd badge at this late date sort of putting on a little showy show?
I found myself firing neurons about this over the weekend when I impulsively checked out Chris Hardwick’s book, The Nerdist Way, from the library. (I don’t know what a geek looks like in 2013, but downloading a Chris Hardwick eBook from the library sounds like a pretty strong qualifier, so I might as well own that.) Early in that book, this fellow who has made nerdery not only his badge of honor but also a lucrative brand writes,
Many times I have been told I’m not a Nerd because I don’t “look like one.” I think I kind of understand what this means, but it’s always slightly offensive to me. Like if you tell someone you’re Jewish and they say, “THAT’S funny. You don’t LOOK Jewish!” Really? Offensive much?…
Oh, yes. Offensive very much.
I have never laid hands on another human being in anger, but the growing tendency of self-identified nerds to try and treat their fondness for sci-fi and D&D like it’s an ethnicity (Hardwick capitalizes “Nerd” and “Nerdy” throughout his book the way you would “Italian”) makes me yearn to give someone a wedgie to an extent I never dreamed possible. How could anyone so preoccupied with their status in the social pecking order be so lacking in self-awareness as to write down, never mind publish, the quote above?
“Oh, shut up,” I recently said under my breath to this book as other people in the Panera quietly moved their chairs further away from me. “Are you really going to write a book called The Nerdist Way and declare yourself the king of the picked-on, then look me square in the readballs and act like you don’t know exactly what someone means when they say a guy ‘looks like a nerd’? As if you didn’t go through school wearing the exact horn-rimmed glasses everyone you’d say that to immediately pictures? Do you think the guys who shoved you into trash cans on your way out of chess club singled you out based on a pheromone you were giving off? Argh, I need to find someone to swirlie.”
What would a Real one look like?
While I was in this frame of mind, I went into a Target where I saw a pile of Flash t-shirts nestled between the faux-aged Cheech and Chong shirts and the AC-DC t-shirts being marketed to people who would never listen to a minute of AC-DC. There were Superman and Batman shirts too, but I don’t even register those anymore; the bat symbol might as well be a Nike swoosh or “Enjoy Coca-Cola.” Batman has been making Warner Brothers seventy jillion dollars since I was in grade school. The Flash, though, seemed like kind of a deep pull for the average Target shopper to be walking around in.
Nobody buys their “pop culture signifier t-shirt” at Target as a way of letting their freak flag fly. Target believes people will buy a Flash t-shirt to be cool.
Even now, people who see themselves as being in this subculture think of it as a group that came together after being picked on and excluded by the “cool.” I don’t need to tell you that these days, though, if I’m hearing the words “geek” or “nerd,” they are usually being used to exclude and pick on people who want to be in the group. There hasn’t been a flare-up of the Fake Geek Girl nonsense on my radar in a while, but it’s only a matter of time before those idiots pipe up again. The lady who was doing the videos on female tropes in video gaming got her latest video pulled by YouTube last week when some mangeeks reported it for violating their terms of service. This, again, is supposedly the group of guys who feel picked on and wish girls would talk to them.
The distinctions are increasingly meaningless. Star Trek is the #1 movie in the country, and I’m reading rants by nerds about how they won’t support it; “J.J. Abrams’ Star Trek is no Trek of mine.” And so it came to pass, children, that a true nerd was someone who absolutely refuses to watch Star Trek.
Is the geek subculture, in fact, imaginary now? Am I living a charmed life of tolerance and drinking from a Spider-Man mug in the workplace without fear of reprisal, while all around me other Nerds are facing oppression just for being Nerds? Will our minority ever know social justice??
Jim Mroczkowski is all set for actual problems, thanks.
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I was on a panel at Comicpalooza in Houston about the American ideal of a superhero recently. This guy on the panel started talking about how nerds didn’t exist anymore because Avengers made “all the money.” Which I thought was kind of like saying punk rock stopped existing when The Clash started getting radio play. Sure a lot of people liked it when Clash songs came on the radio but how many of them were buying the records? How many were seeking out local punk rocks shows to go see?
That’s a GREAT comparison. The Clash were huge in the early eighties thanks to a string of radio hits but it wasn’t until they softened their sound and most of their punk aesthetic with the release of London Calling that they found mainstream success. They were still called punk but not much of their punk rock roots remained.
I would argue the same is true with “geek culture” these days. Sure it’s great to see all the sci-fi films bombarding the theater this summer and the plethora of comic book films over the past several years, but how “geeky” are they really? I would say things films like Elysium and Pacific Rim are sci-fi on the surface alone. Where is the hard sci-fi? Call me when Vacuum Diagrams or House of Sons make it to the big screen and I’ll believe geek culture has truly crossed over. To continue the metaphor @roivampire started, the geek we have in the mainstream today is the New Wave equivalent of radio punk in the 80’s. Commodified and sanitized to be palatable for the masses.
@upunx- I agree about the hard sci-fi thing- why not Hyperion or Quantum Thief or G A Effinger on screen?
@maty: Yes to Hyperion! I almost feel like that is too big for one film though. I would make a great HBO five part mini-series!!
Great article, Jim.
Very little annoys me more than folks expressing outrage over how “our people” are represented. I understand that it’s a method of “taking back the word” by a group who felt persecuted as youths, but honestly, if you’re out of high school, that battle’s over. The internet has irrevocably shifted the zeitgeist. Everything is cool now. We won.
I call myself a nerd or geek (lower case) on occasion, but as a shorthand to identify my predilections for certain genres. It’s a subculture, not a race.
“And so it came to pass, children, that a true nerd was someone who absolutely refuses to watch Star Trek.” — Absolutely brilliant!
^That makes me a true nerd then.
Now that I’ve said that, great article. I have been campaigning against the “Nerd as an Ethnicity” stuff for a long time, because it’s stupid. I’ve had people tell me that Big Bang Theory is as bad as black face or Amos and Andy, and that ranks among the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. Being a nerd isn’t like belonging to an ethnic group, and people need to stop acting like bullying a nerd is like racism.
I don’t know that bullying a nerd is equivalent to racism, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a bad thing.
I’m always a little wary of the notion that the popularity of the Avengers movie means that being a fan on the Avengers is no longer “nerdy”. For several reasons.
One, how many of the people who went to see the movie went to see “The Avengers”? I think many of them went to see “The action movie with Robert Downey Jr. and Chris Evans”. I remember asking around the time when both Thor and Green Lantern movies had been out, why “normal” people seemed to like Thor better than GL, and generally got answers along the lines of “I thought the guy playing Thor was better-looking”. Had “The Avengers” been the first movie, featuring all no-names, by a directory with no following, would it have been as successful?
Another, how many of those people actually went on to try to learn more about the Avengers? For most of them, it was just a movie. Going to a movie does not a nerd make.
Another way of looking at it is, was “The Avengers” a geeky movie, or did they take a geeky subject and suck all the geekiness out of it and make it into something cool? I haven’t seen the Circus of Crime or the Toad Men from Saturn showing up in any Marvel movies.
I don’t know that it’s about people being “persecuted”, but there’s still a social ladder. Let’s say I go to a party and meet some dude for the first time. He brings up pro football as an interest of his. I don’t know anything about pro football, so we can’t talk about that. I could bring up comic books as an interest of mine, but he doesn’t know anything about that. So we have nothing to talk about and move on. But in that situation, which of us is “lacking social skills”? Many people would say it’s me, because I don’t know anything the thing that is supposed to be very popular and well-known, and instead prefer things are are “obscure” in the minds of many.
Finally, I don’t know that any particular item is nerdy/geeky, it’s how you go about it. Liking “baseball” in the sense that you watch the games on TV isn’t nerdy. Liking “baseball” in that you have a computer database with all of the players’ stats since the game was invented and creating computer programs that pit different historical teams against each other, that’s nerdy. Which brings me back to the Avengers example. Going to the movies to watch “The Avengers” isn’t nerdy. Having a monthly pull list to buy the comic books of the Avengers is.
…What?
So the fact that Star Trek does well and people wear Batman T-shirts means we live in the United Nerds of America now? The school beatings & suicides are a thing of the past? Did Magic the Gathering replace high school football too?:) if i remember my history, the commercial success of jazz in the 40s signified an end to racism too…:)
As for the fake geek girl bit…nerds are like any other group, some good, some bad and a whole lot in the middle. And this is the internet, where people have the tools & anonymity to be complete dicknoses when ever they want. If that youtube video was a film or art show would the boo-boys be firebombing the joint? I find it unlikely. Possible, but unlikely.
I was at a con in april and it was great, lots and lots of different people of all different sizes and colours, some social, some very very shy. Comic nerds, star wars nerds, LotR nerds, cosplay nerds, anime nerds, even, my little pony nerds. All these people in the same convention centre, under the same umbrella. NERDS. Self identifying and honestly owning the things that they love. It sounds like a small thing, but it’s real.
That’s what nerds look like. And i’m cool with it.
(and i’m sure i’ve said too much here:)…).
PS: the Nerdist bashing was a bit small. Hardwick is an almost painfully nice guy, and funny as well.
“if i remember my history, the commercial success of jazz in the 40s signified an end to racism too…:)”
Hmmm…
I apologize if I’m being a bit too PC here, but might we refrain from equivocating anti-nerd bias to racism?
That aside, I agree whole-heartedly with your statement regarding your con experiences. Love what you love, wear it proud, and fuck the rest.
And a mighty poke it was, sir! Indeed, the point is valid.
Yes!
You’re very right, just because nerdy things make money doens’t mean nerds no longer face any problems.
And while it sucks that some nerds accuse others of being “fakes” it’s no different to any other group, like sports fans who accuse others of being posers because they only started supporting the team when they started winning.
I’m not defending people who act that way and maybe that behavior is more prevalent in nerdom but it’s certainly not exclusive to it.
Here’s the thing, even if the word “nerd” or “geek” is cool, people who used to be bullied for being a “nerd” or a “geek” will still be bullied, their tormentors will just use other words to do it.
The fact is socially awkward people will also be picked on, they used to be picked on because they liked Star Treck and comics now they’ll be picked on for another reason, that doesn’t make it better.
Finally, and I understand this is going to be ridiculously controversial but on a personal level I think anti-nerd bias CAN be comparable to racism.
If someone commits suicide because of bullying, then it doesn’t matter if the bullying was because they were black or gay or a nerd, in that circumstance discrimination against any of those things is equally bad.
Although on a larger social scale of course the atrocities committed by racists are worse than those committed by anti-nerd bullies.
When I was in high school I hid the fact that I read comics because the fact of the matter was it was hard to fit in as it was. And any hint that you’re deviating from “trying to be cool” was not worth the risk. But like many as I got older and became more comfortable in my own skin I could care less about what others think. Like a previous poster mentioned I’d refer to myself as a nerd or a geek to describe my interest towards the sub culture. And I don’t take it very seriously. One of the persistent problems is that comic book companies continue to not advertise their comics beyond comic shops — and that only keeps the hobby insular resulting in you guessed it… continual stereotyping of those consumers.
I like Chris Hardwick and a lot of the content his company produces. In particular, he is a brilliant interviewer. That said, I agree with Jimski on the whole over-identifying as a nerd thing. Hardwick always loses me a bit there. I have no desire or need to pegged in a certain group or sub-culture. I like what I like. Sometimes it is dorky minutia.
I totally agree with your article, Jim. I’ve had an awareness of Chris Hardwick for sometime, but never thought to look into this person’s claims of true nerdism. Now I know I was right to ignore him. I’m so tired of people’s willingness to be a victim in these situations. Where does that come from?
What’s more and I’ll tell anyone this for free: I was told I DIDN’T LOOK MEXICAN when I was growing up and to hear kids say that to me was an indescribable feeling. Even as I type I ‘m getting a wave of different emotions. At times, t was said as a supposed compliment and while it didn’t happen everyday (I got this from time to time), but when it was said my heart would sink. All over again. I could go on about my experiences, but really my point being is that there is no comparing this type of insult to any presumed stereotype of geeks. It is NOT an insult and the want to have these comments to have such a meaning is merely an overblown sense of self importance. Great article Jim.
I met a guy in my last English class who was Asian but got confused as Hispanic (based on how he acted and dressed). It was a huge source of frustration for him. One of my best friends who’s African American gets annoyed when his friends say he’s really Asian (because he is fascinated with Japanese and Korean culture). It’s weird how our culture identity becomes so important to us, nobody wants to be confused for something else.
One of my “best friends” in high school once told me I wasn’t a real Mexican because I couldn’t speak Spanish at the time. It hurt quite a bit. My brother gets it the worst though, since he also “doesn’t look Mexican.” It sucks and I agree with everything else you said as well.
@IthoSapien: Look at it this way: When I was told that I didn’t look Mexican, the other meaning in this was that if I did look the part I probably wouldn’t be accepted by those kids who made this particular observation. Culture identity is important to me because it defines who I am in the best way and to be identified as something else is offensive. Not sure how you don’t understand this. And a self proclaimed geek making this comparison is just grasping at meaning to was is a mere lifestyle choice, nothing more.
@little_mascara: It drives me crazy when people say these stupid things. And you’d think this static mentality couldn’t exist at this time, but sadly, it still does.
@TreeoftheStoneAge, I’ll probably never fully understand cultural identity issues because I’m a paleface, but I think I “get” it. You want your cultural identity to be recognized because it’s part of who you are. That’s good. But I think it’s kind of funny that my friend hates it when people say he’s Asian not black, even tho he so enthusiastically enjoys Asian culture. He acts like if he accepts that label he won’t be accepted by his peers. However it sounds like you wanted the same for opposite reasons; you were accepted because you “weren’t Mexican” and wanted that to be rectified. I guess my own cultural identity is less important/vital to me, I would actually enjoy it if someone said I didn’t act “white”. To use my friend as an example again, I think he feels like he is lacking in some standard to “blackness” and has to try to live up to it when in reality it’s an abstract concept and maybe what fulfills that standard is y’know not productive behavior.
But that doesn’t excuse what you’re classmates said to you, I try not to say things like that or if I unintentionally do I make clear it’s about the personality traits of the individual and not some preconceived notions about race or ethnicity (IE, oh by you’re voice or maturity I assumed you were older). I do get annoyed when people assume I’m 6 years younger than I am, but that’s because people assume 75-85% things that are wrong about me (except for the nerd stuff, that’s mostly true).
I think they’re still stereotypical versions of nerds out there, and comic book nerds too. I think there’s an acceptable level of nerdiness (black thick-rimmed glasses, obscenely colorful shoes, tight pants) and everything else (which is much harder to nail down, to my family it’s still buying comic books when Im not a kid anymore). I don’t think the entire subculture has become mainstream yet. If people want to be nerds, that’s cool I guess; but I’m not sure you can become a nerd. Then again these are just labels anyway, the term “Geek” used to refer to Carnival workers who bit off chicken heads to amuse crowds so words and meanings change or are just meaningless in the first place. I’ve gotta agree that after High School (with some exceptions) the whole Nerd vs everyone else is becomes a nonconcern.
“Is the geek subculture, in fact, imaginary now? Am I living a charmed life of tolerance and drinking from a Spider-Man mug in the workplace without fear of reprisal, while all around me other Nerds are facing oppression just for being Nerds? Will our minority ever know social justice??”
I honestly have no idea how to read that last paragraph.
It means how people like Chris Hardwick are belaboring the point how nerds have to “fight” to be taken serious and respected, while in reality, no one really cares.
Which might mean, he’s justified in trying to get nerd culture taken seriously because no one cares. But I don’t think that’s it. Yes people need to readjust how they look at comic books, stop blaming video games for violent behavior, all that jazz but I don’t feel like it’s a fight for respect or anything.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything in the article. Nice job, Jim.
It’s worth pointing out that, decades ago, “nerd” had two different connotations: 1) someone who was smart/tech-savy, 2) someone who was socially awkward and incompetent or stupid about the basic things in life. When I think about how “We’re all nerds now”, I think that the secondary definition has sort of been overlooked, especially by people who proudly self-identify as nerdy.
So, yeah, we’re increasingly becoming a nation of technology-obsessed people, each of us with specialized encyclopedic knowledge of things like Dr. Who, the Avengers, Star Wars, football, Civil War history, WWII history, hot rods, and/or vintage Barbie dolls, etc. But we’re also socially inept to the point at which our society is falling apart in a myriad of ways that we can’t even comprehend. But we know everything there is to know about the Indiana Jones franchise.
That said, of course I self-identify as a nerd. I’m not proud of it but I’m not ashamed or it, either. It’s the way things are now, for better and worse.
I do think people are too sensitive of their subgroup, though. Nerds especially. And I guess that’s what Jim’s article is getting at. But I’m a quarter Native American, and have been told I don’t look like one at all… but HAVE been told that I look Jewish, which I’m not. And when I was 9 years old, a new girl at school assumed I was Chinese. I’m serious. But… I’ve never really been offended about any of that. I dunno, guys, I guess I just basically have more tolerance for people’s ignorance or incorrectness if it’s just obviously not coming from a hateful place in them. The people who have told me I “looked Jewish” didn’t say it with anger or insinuate any sort of negative stereotype about Jewish people.
I think that, whatever your bag is (with a few exceptions), it’s just not a big deal anymore. The internet has kind of changed things. Even if you feel out of place in your high school in Kansas, there are enough online communities of like minded people, that’s it’s hard to feel like you don’t belong somewhere.
Whiether it’s comics, computer science, video games, LGBT, porn, kink, urban free-running, ghost-busting, really, pretty much whatever your into, there’s a forum for it, and we’re all pretty much getting okay with having this stuff in the open, as opposed to hidden in a closet somewhere.
Yes, bullying is a painful fact still…But honestly, I feel like it’s allowed to exist at this point not because kids are jerks, and fear what’s different, but because adults allow it to continue, and propogate that same thinking. Within a generation, I expect to see a lot less of this. And yeah, once you get out of high school, “it gets better”.
I think that clinging to the brand name “nerd”, for good or ill, is clinging to the past. It served it’s purpose of deciding who you eat lunch with during high school, and after that? Who needs it?
I gotta disagree on Adults allowing Bullying to continue, alot of stuff I’ve seen and researched suggests otherwise. Yea there is a portion that does nothing, but then you’ve got those parents who are dumbfounded that their kids on getting picked on in Facebook and want someone to do something. I think there might be something natural (not right, but instinctual) in kids picking on each other. Something to do with building a group or encouraging standard behavior. Some stuff definitely goes too far, but I don’t think the overall cause is Adults standing on the sidelines. I don’t have any real research to back up any of this, but I was bullied every day in school until I left High School.
I didn’t mean parents, per se…Too often I see the bullying is being perpetuated by the Principals, Teachers, Coaches, etc. And when that attitude gets adopted by some of the kids, it’s tolerated. “Oh your kid got the shit kicked out of him when he wore a pink shirt? Well, boys will be boys, you know!”.
I don’t have any studies either…just anecdotal evidence, and the plethora of “Girl barred from attending prom for taking another girl as date” articles in the past few years.
bub64882 is correct on this. I knew a kid who used to get bullied and beat up by large groups of kids all throughout 5th and 6th grade. I used to intervene whenever i thought i was physically capable but at the time i was one of three smallest kids in my school (ive since grown) so i had to resort to asking teachers and other school staff to stop the beatings dozens of times. These school staff would literally stand and watch this kid getting beat up and do nothing… and this wasnt just one of the school staff.. this was a large group of people that used to take turns “watching” the childrens recess. Im talking administration, lunch ladies, science teachers and PE teachers would just stand and watch. The only thing that qualified this kid as someone that was “asking for a beating” was that he didnt fight back and got genuinely scared. The only way to stop bullying is to kick the bully’s ass or at least try to. By the way.. this kid that was allowed to be beaten directly in sight of my grade school staff.. ended up hanging himself in high school. We went to different high schools (he went to a catholic school).. otherwise i think i could have prevented it.
@ilovecomics, that story is very tragic and unfortunate but I hope you’ll understand that’s not the general practice (Teachers, principals, etc watching children get beaten). When I got into physical confrontations the Teachers intervened ASAP and even had someone specifically to handle extreme situations. I’m not saying there are not Adults in schools out there not doing their jobs and letting bad situations get worse, there are and they should be held accountable; however I can’t believe it’s the overall American Education System instead of a small part of it.
I’ll use another example just to add a new perspective, in my High School some of the toughest and popular guys wore pink. For whatever reason, it’s what they did (I thought it was strange, guess I’m too much like Vegeta). If I said anything to the contrary, I probably would have got a beating (if there wasn’t a teacher around, but I didn’t take the chance). Different regions have different problems and resolve them to varied success. Another example, my high school let a girl bring another as her prom date. To the best of my knowledge, nobody made a big deal about it (except the girls’ themselves, but thats another story and topic). I’m not sure where these schools are that encourage/allow these extreme bullying stories are, but it would surprise me if there wasn’t a geographic correlation between all of them.
There’s alot of stuff done to try to end it, “Bully”, PSAs, general awareness; but I don’t think it’s something you can stamp out totally. Stop the horrible cases, the possible suicide/homicides yes of course, but. I really doubt you can just extinguish bullying entirely.
I think we can conclude here that your experience with teachers and staff stopping bullying was good and my experience was bad. I dont know how either of us could really know what the “general practice” is… but just the fact that ive seen it happen so many times when 1 time is wayyyyyy too many is my point. Id have to guess that its common practice to stop bullying when its seen by staff but if even a few dozen teachers a day turn a blind eye thats too much. I grew up in a middle class midwestern town that was middle of the road in politics .. i.e. not too rich not too poor.. not too liberal.. not too conservative.. nothing to make my schools stand out or be looked down upon (and yet it still happened and im sure it still does). Frankly it was like a twilight zone moment every time this kid started getting ganged up on and i turned to a staff member and locked eyes and we both acknowledged that someone was getting attacked by multiple opponents and then the staff member would just shift their focus and go about their day like nothing was happening. Just as child rapists get more negative attention than regular rapists the same should be said of this.. if you watch an adult get beat up by multiple opponents and do nothing maybe your a coward but if you watch a child get beat up by multiple opponents and do nothing your definitely an ahole. Just to clarify .. im sure you are right about the great majority of school staff making good judgement about bullying… but even if its 10 percent of schools not getting it right. Thats way too many schools. A lot of kids dont know what to do to combat it so adults have to do a little better.
And yes it will never be stamped out and that sucks.
I have similar experiences to ilovecomics…Back when I was in school, and now in observing my kids’ school. And my kids go to a hippy montessori school, and STILL this behavior persists. I watched two teachers and another parent just watch as one child was held by a larger boy, while another one kneed him in the groin the repeatedly. I flipped out, yelled at the kids, dragged one of the teachers to the principal, went on a tirade on “culture of violence” blah blah blah. And the teacher just kind of stared blankly like “what’s the big deal”. I think the Principal got it, and I make sure she knows I’m watching, but that teacher? Still clueless.
I don’t think administrators are scared enough of “encouraging bullying” & “culture of violence” lawsuits…yet.
This all astonishes me, my school usually jumps on stuff like that. I fathom School Employees just watching that stuff and doing nothing. @Ilovecomics is right tho, even if it’s only 10% of the American Education System that allows this it’s still too much. I wonder if some adults (much like most of America) have become somehow desesitized to violence. No that can’t be it, and wouldn’t justify anything if it was true.
Funny story; in Germany before WW2 when children had conflicts with each other the parents would allow them to fight it out, while in France in the same period the parents would have the children talk it out. There’s no reason for that kind of behavior today tho.
Maybe it’s schools that have never been sued before, how can you have fear of repercussions if you’ve never faced them? My schools must have faced some irate parents by the time I was there. Although when I was bullied my Mom would make a big fuss and demand something be done, but it didn’t change much and I just stopped telling her. Unless there was a fight or altercation nobody got punished. Exceptions being if someone said something like a threat, racist, or homophobic.
I think you did the right thing @bub64882. If I can suggest something tho for your kids, teach them how to defend themselves. I didn’t learn karate and self-defense until I was a freshman in college and I feel like it would have really helped me if I’d learned earlier. If that kind if stuff you described happens when the teachers are watching then I don’t want to know what happens when they’re not around. And believe me, when theres no adults around thats when things get really out of hand, at least in my experience. Also in my experience, when I stood up to people is when they stopped and tried to get on better terms with me. It didn’t work all the time, some people just don’t care and just want to hurt someone weaker than them, and I’m not suggesting violence solves everything; but sometimes there’s nobody to protect you but yourself and you have to step up.
Now adays I still have the fear of being attacked, but now I feel like I have the means to defend myself and prevent a repeat of the past.
Sorry that you were bullied for so long Itho. Im not sure i agree with the “semi” blame the victims that some other posters have kind of been suggesting. I think bullies are opportunists and cowards and weak in their own way. The people that get bullied are often different in ways they have no control of.. and these differences often have nothing to do with social skills. Size was a factor for me and moving to a new school. I was very badly bullied in second and third grade because i was “the new kid” and i was perhaps the shortest kid in my class. To pick on the smallest kid or to pick on a new kid (with no allies) comes from a place of weakness not strength. Luckily i grew and made friends and i turned the tables quickly but not everyone can turn the tables. Frankly if your a new kid, an unattractive kid, a poor kid, a minority kid, an unathletic kid, a physically unusual kid or some combination of those youre going to have some bullying at some point and its not the victims fault. At least we werent girls getting bullied by other girls.. girls can do some really terrifying things to each other.
Thanks @Ilovecomics. I agree with alot of what you said. I was one those guys without many friends, unattractive, and just awkward in school. I’m told now that I’ve really come around by my family. I gotta admit I think girls have become more like boys when they bully (I’ve started seeing women hit each other in the breasts and Vag) but I was bullied by both boys and girls in school and I thought the girls were worse. It wasn’t enough that they said something mean, they had to spread rumors and lies to the whole school, plus if they attacked you physically you couldn’t really fight back.
The idea of “Nerds culture” is and always has been a complete mirage for as long as I’ve been alive. I read comics from my youth through high school as well as skateboard, play basketball, go to underground rap shows and hang with drug dealers (I know it’s lame it was who I was whatever) Nobody cares or cared back then. In fact most of the most popular movies that came out while I was in high school where the Matrix, Lord of the Rings and Spiderman. Are there people that spend too much time with the minutia of comics and Science Fiction? Sure but there are also those same people that do that with sports (go see Patton Oswalts big fan) music, food, porn, good television, bad television ect…. The idea that any adult would still think of terms of nerdiness the way Chad Hardwick seem to, as if the enjoyment of something in anyway reflects on us as complex human beings, speaks more to there lack of critical thinking skills then it does in anyway to how society interacts with segments of pop culture.
No, it just means that the experiences you had are not necessarily indicative of the whole. You might not have felt like an outsider for your passions, but some people did, and do.
As I mentioned above, just because someone went to see “The Avengers” doesn’t mean he and I can sit down and have a conversation on how neat it is that they are bringing in those New Universe concepts in the monthly book. Nor does it mean that person won’t look at me like I’m a freak or a child if I tried to discuss it.
Your experience was definitely not typical.
” Nor does it mean that person won’t look at me like I’m a freak or a child if I tried to discuss it” anybody that does that is a piece of shit and they don’t matter. I’m not sure how atypical my experience is. My cousin who gave me all his comics was the same way as was one of my good friends in middle school/high school. My college GF was similar but anybody looking at her would never had guessed it. She was a girly girl that was into make up and fashion and would party and all that but that wan’t all that defined her. Most of my friends didn’t read comics but that’s cool because most people didn’t read comics and I figured that’s the way it was. Most of my friends or people I know didn’t listen to Company Flow either. None of the single things I enjoy define me and I don’t think it truly does for anybody else.
@phess1 My life experience has played out a lot like your’s it sounds like, and I don’t think its very atypical. I’ve had a very well-rounded life with lots of different friends and interests. Ive been teased a little, probably a lot less than some, but Ive never considered myself a nerd. I played magic and watched Star Trek, raced cars and ran around with gangsters, was school president and got straight A’s, skated and went to rap shows. I just turned thirty and think all this talk is divisive and juvenile. Awkward people are awkward no matter if they’re into sports or anime, and waiving the geek flag is just a way of belonging, in a passive aggressive way, but not too dissimilar from the way a “cool” person (whatever that means) teases. Nobody owns it, its not an ethnicity, and right now its trendy so revel in it if you want, but don’t judge others for trying to be “cool” by looking “nerdy”. I’ve been pretty tolerant my whole life (moreso as I age) and have tended to see people for who they are and not what they’re interested in or how they dress. All of this categorical thinking is rather new to me, I’ve always just done what I’ve liked without much thought to if its cool to other people. It’s been pretty successful so far.
theWAC1: I agree with you 100% and I wish I could articulate it as well you do. I have a few mantra’s that I live be and one is written by this guy Drew Magary on deadspin.com of all places who was writing about some bullshit miller lite commercial or something and said in effect “being a man isn’t following some arbitrary set of ideals based on traditional masculinity. Being a man is doing what the fuck you want” Love what you love and be who you are. Everything else will fall into place.
for me, i grew out of waving the subculture flag. I still like the stuff, i have some t-shirts, but my life doesn’t revolve around my hobby. I’m an adult who likes stuff. I’m not interested in labels like “geek/nerd”. For me, i kinda feel its degrading to have the entirety of my life being reduced to one little subcultural label tied to a hobby. I’m more complex than that. If that stuff makes you happy and makes you feel a part of something, then that’s awesome and i think there is value for some in that.
These conversations always remind me of the high school/college clicks. “Hey our group just wants to be accepted…as long as you realize we’re awesome and you’re boring and normal” I think its a viscous cycle that all subcultures share. Too cool for school vs being respected/accepted. You want and hate both things simultaneously.
You also hit on another key issue: age. In younger ages, particularly in high school, someone who is a “nerd” (likes comic books/sci-fi/RPG’s/etc.) gets picked on because someone else is trying to establish a social pecking order, because at that age that’s all that matters for many who otherwise have no ambitions or concerns. As adults, though, the only ones who continue to act like that are the ones who never grew up, and shockingly still have no ambitions or concerns. So you, adult Jim, can like what you like with no one giving a crap (or, at worst, looking at you as a bit of an oddity) because everyone’s got their own thing going on. But young Jim may have experienced this because he was around a bunch of insecure teenagers who dealt with their insecurity by pouncing on the seemingly weakest member of the herd.
Sorry, but my wife and I have been binge watching “Freaks and Geeks” and this made me think of the social interactions on that show.
Genres like sci-fi, fantasy, and superhero have always been popular with people who aren’t “cool” or “popular” due to the element of escapism they provide. In the past this has been the main reason for people’s association of so-called “nerds” and comic-books (the traditional medium for the superhero genre). Due partly to technological innovations and to a growing realization that these movies, when done well, can make huge profits, superhero films have become more mainstream and introduced fun and cool aspects of the genre to mass audiences. So now the stereotype that only “socially awkward” individuals like superhero stuff or read comics is starting to break down.
And despite the past stereotype, it’s always been the case that people who do fine socially can also like genre stuff. I wasn’t the captain of the football team and never dated the head cheerleader, but I did (do) like sports and was one of those letter-jacketed athletes. In retrospect, wearing a green letter jacket with yellow leather sleeves seems way nerdier now to me than the fact that I read comics in HS. And I did bring comics and Mad magazines to class to read and lend (at times, actually, to the starting QB and a couple cheerleaders as I recall). It was supremely cool to read that stuff during World History. But I could also to relate to a fellow comic-reader who was an overweight, pimpled and bespectacled guy who literally wore the same shirt to school every day and seemed to have few friends. As I recall it was a college basketball shirt, highlighting a point that the comics/sports dichotomy that I often hear (in this comment section a couple times even) has always seemed inaccurate to me.
Anyway, I’ve never considered myself a nerd, even though I read comics and, yes, have a pull-list. But for folks who do self-identify as a geek/nerd, as an act of empowerment, I say live and let live. I am not the guy who gives his groomsmen Green Lantern rings to wear at his wedding, but neither would I want to put down the guy who does. That’s his thing and more power to him.
Nerds/Geeks are a sub-culture, not an ethnicity. That sub-culture spans the length and breadth of personalities, just like any other sub-culture. Some people are very comfortable wearing their nerdiness on their sleeves, while others are not. Just because Super Heroes are more mainstream now-a-days does not mean nerdiness is mainstream, merely that one tiny aspect of nerd-dom has broken free. I say tiny because superheroes have only broken free to the extent that they are popular as Action movies. The general audiences’ desire to see super heroes is sated with the films and maybe some mass market paraphernalia. They are not rushing out to buy comics or trades. They are not buying action figures with the desire of keeping them mint in box. They are not going to conventions. Nothing. They simply like the movies. There’s nothing wrong with that either, they simply relate to a common interest in a more passive way than I.
A lot of nerds seem to loathe the big bang theory. I have never understood their criticism. The show has done wonders to exposing the general public to what nerds do and think. It has opened their eyes and allowed them to peer past the veil of the esoteric to gaze upon the true lives of nerds. They realize that, in truth, nerds are nothing more than normal people that happen to like different things than they. Most nerds are not strange creatures, just socially awkward due to a mix of being shy and not relating to others’ interests.
However, just because there has been a renaissance of how society evaluates nerds does not mean nerds are mainstream. They simply understand us more than they did in the past.
@scarletbatman: Completely agreed about Big Bang Theory. I really don’t understand all the hate that show gets from “nerds.” Is it totally accurate? No. Is it exaggerated? Of course. Is it a fucking sitcom!?! Yes!! So give it a break. Seinfeld or Friends or The Cosby Show were in NO WAY realistic but they were great sitcoms. Sitcom in no way equals an accurate depiction of reality. It means a funny and often exaggerated show that makes you laugh by pointing out humorous things about people that often make us realize we are not all that different after all. Seinfeld poked fun at a myriad of social quirks and personality traits and in the process made us all a little more accepting by realizing we ALL have quirks of some kind. I think Big Bang does the same type of thing. People need to realize that and just chill.
Plus I always get a thrill during the comic book store scenes when I notice actual new comics on the stands! I think it’s pretty cool they make sure the comic books on the stands reflect what are actually new at the time the episode airs.
+1 great post and same with you, uspunx.
I also love TBBT, and get excited when i see current issues displayed in the comic book store (especially ones I’ve read/own). That said I feel it’s current rise in popularity is due to to show becoming more mainstream (focusing more on relationships/drama than actual nerd things, not to see there’s no sign of the former). I wish they’d spend more time on certain topics, buts it’s Chuck Lorre and CBS so I don’t raise my hopes too high. I agree it’s given (normal) people more insight (?) into geek culture while not nescessarly an appreciation. Hopefully my terms are easy to understand and not mixed up. Good posts all around.
The Big Bang Theory uses stereotypes to tell jokes. They used to be funny. Now it’s not. What I gather the nerds problem is that everyone of their friends and family thinks they should watch a run-of-the-mill multi-camera sitcom just because it has “LOL Nerds!”. There are hundreds of multi-camera sitcoms on American TV, majority of them awful, regardless of subject. Comic-book geeks gets the better end of the deal there, as that is an ancillary part of the show. Scientists get treated like crap on the show. It is the anti-Trek in that manner; it would turn more kids off science than Trek got into.
@muddi900: Yeah I think you’re making some leaps there regarding Big Bang turning kids off of science. I don’t think it is the point of a sitcom to turn kids onto or off of science. I also don’t know that Trek had a huge role in boosting the ranks of scientists. I haven’t watched TOS in a long time but I remember it being pretty light in the science department and more about adventure and Jim Kirk punching aliens.
I also think we all need to take responsibility as viewers. Big Bang is a sitcom, a situation comedy. Not a drama, certainly not a doc program, so it is of course exaggerated. It uses stereotypes to tell jokes just like pretty much all sitcoms do, by poking fun at them to show how ridiculous they are and to say “Hey, we’re really not all that different.” In order to make the point they are often exaggerated. Seinfeld played on stereotypes WAY more than Big Bang ever has. If you’re looking for reality in a sitcom you’re honestly an idiot. If parents are worried about kids getting turned off by science because they watched the Big Bang Theory then maybe they should sit their kids down in front of PBS every now and then.
I enjoyed reading science fiction, loved Planet of the Apes, collected comic books and scored high on the SAT but wouldn’t consider myself a nerd/geek. Though it wasn’t until college that I shared my interest in comics no one really called me a nerd or geek growing up. I was relatively popular in high school and college, or at least not pick on besides the year I lived in Texas. I think the culture surrounding comics and science fiction is relatively accepted and almost considered “hip”.
I would say the persecuted nerd would be someone that’s into playing that magic game, who collects non-sports related cards into adolescence, has a low social IQ, or is relatively unattractive. Those are the people who’s cries against bullying grab my ear. These facets of “nerdom” are ones that aren’t accepted and thus lead to the bullying of individuals that have said characteristics.
Oh.. I am only 2 years removed from college. Saying I “loved Planet of the Apes” may imply I was much older. I’m not sure how accepted the comic/sci-fi was when those movies came out.
Yeah, I think the cause and effect gets mixed up sometimes. I think people are picked-on for reasons that have nothing to do with reading comics, being into RPGs, or collecting things. They are picked on, unfairly of course, for reasons you mention (primarily for being socially awkward). And it just happens (due to the escapism factor) that people who have social issues are attracted to comics, fantasy, RPGs, and hobbies that require you to focus on minutia unrelated to the “real” world. So there is a self-selecting correlation between comics (or the Magic game for that matter) and being “uncool.” But there are also plenty of people who enjoy these things who are not picked on at all, because they are also socially adept.
@Master Destructo, that’s exactly what I was trying to articulate. Also it goes without saying this bullying is unfair and unacceptable. I hope I didn’t communicate that I was in support of picking on those that fit any of the things I described.
@jpriester: I probably should have been more clear. I was basically just agreeing with some of your points and expounding a little. Your comment made me think of some things I wish I’d said in my earlier one. My “unfairly of course” statement was just me making absolutely sure no one mistook I was saying that people who were socially awkward were getting their just deserts or something; it wasn’t a reaction to anything you’d said. Sorry for the confusion.
Let’s see, I have heard the phrase “You don’t sound black”, after meeting people who I have talked on the phone with. Been told “You don’t look like a lawyer” when people ask me what I do for a living. When I walk into new comic shops it feels that people there think I am there to beat them up. The simple fact is that I have read comics non-stop from 1972, through high school and college football, through undergrad and law school, and continue to do so to this day. I play softball and weight train and can still bench press 500 pounds, but every Wednesday anyone who knows me knows that I can be found at my LCS getting my week’s worth of new material. I saw Hardwick first on Talking Dead and while I don’t know the guy at all, he comes across to me at least as someone trying too hard to say “Hey, I’m like you! Buy my stuff!” I feel that he is pandering to a defined market share and I find it a bit off-putting. When the trend of “gee’ this or “nerd” that runs its course, just like “metrosexual” or MC Hammer pants or Boy Bands and soft jazz did, I will still be at my LCS every Wednesday getting my books. The pimping of a perceived culture isn’t new but eventually those who are in it for exploitative reasons will go away, they always do, and then they will find the next thing to attach themselves to.
There really is a lot of pandering to the “geek crowd” or whatever they call it. It’s a bunch of folks trying to cash in on the latest fad. I think anybody who tries too hard to prove they have geek cred is faking it.
And “You don’t sound black” is a compliment from white people who don’t know any better!
How in the world is that a complement?
@mutielover: I think what he meant was the ignorant people who say something like that see it as a compliment because they are too stupid and racist to know any better. At least that’s what I hope he meant.
Everybody feels like a dork or a nerd or a geek sometime. I just don’t get why anybody would WANT to be one of those.
My brother commented that some of the people at the FCBD looked pretty dorky. I guess he thinks he’s “cool.” Sure, some of the folks were weird, but most seem like regular people. We have some weirdos at my comic shop, but most people I’ve seen in there seem able to behave like normal human beings most of the time.
You can keep your club. Im not a geek and im not a nerd and i could care less about group thought. People arent one dimensional and black or white unless they are boring as hell. I like comics and novels and playing sports and movies and hiking and fucking an I could care less what everyone else does or doesnt do. I try not to judge other people and I hope not to be judged. To me geek and nerd are negative things. I dont laugh at fat people and I find it sad when people laugh at their own unhealthy bodies.. the same applies here. Dont embrace negativity. I have no respect for this claiming of words.
I’ve read this article twice and I still don’t know what Jim’s point is. Sci-Fi and superheroes have been a part of the public consciousness for decades. I’m so sick of these “truer than thou” rants. Every subculture has them.
I happens in every subculture. “I am a Metalhead, too, man, I love Korn.”, and you’ll be ostracized from the metal community forever.. Would cinephiles ever care for what you have to say if you say your favorite film is Transformers? Do comedy nerds treat you with respect if you laugh at Dane Cook?
Why we do this might be rooted in our tribal instincts, but if people can create billion strong tribes centered around invisible Sky Parents, then why not Spider-man? Comparing this phenomenon to ‘Fake Geek Girlsh! NO!’ is rather disingenuous.
Personal interests and hobbies are normal. That’s what’s known as being an ‘interesting’ person.
The geek shall inherit the earth.
Sure there are still Geeks. I spend most of my disposable income for comics, statues, videogames and movies, while most people in my age spend most of theirs going out at the weekend, drinking and partying. Rather staying at home most of the time and admiring my statues while reading a giant absolute edition of my favorite comic run still sounds rather geeky to me.
A geek or nerd is someone that delves into a topic beyond other people. Lots of people like baseball, but baseball nerds can tell you how to calculate OPS and tell you the league leader. Similarly, lots of people like the Avengers movie but a comic nerd can tell you how it’s different from current continuity. People wear Target Batman t-shirts for the same reason people wear Yankees caps: it’s cool to do so. But this shouldn’t be confused for someone that loves these topics independent of the zeitgeist. It’s a lot more acceptable for people to like more fringe topics and to even be really passionate about them. There will always be a stigma for younger people that are just trying to fit in because kids can be cruel. But our generation, millennial/gen X, is a lot more open to most things. That’s just progress.
What a sad article.
Jim rehashes a bunch of ideas that we have been hearing from all corners of pop-culture town for the past year or so.
He then takes a cheap shot at fellow original content creator, Chris Hardwick, just because he (Hardwick) had the temerity to have a different (more inclusive and kind) view of what ever a nerd/Nerd/geek/Geek is.
You, sir, come off sounding bitter and I can almost hear the “Get off my lawn!”.
Yeah I’m not so sure I’d call Hardwick “inclusive.” “Opportunistic” might be a better word.
Good article Jim,
The biggest problem I have with all of this is that many people who identify as ‘nerds or geeks’ act as though they are the victim and the winner at the same time. I often hear stories where people say they were picked on in high school but now they have way better jobs than those jocks who beat them up. “We all own or run companies now and those ‘dumbass jocks’ still work at their dads grocery store” etc. If that is true then you need to stop playing up how you were picked on so much and be proud of what you have accomplished. It is like when Christians talk about how America is a nation built and run by Christians and that they are the majority, but then complain that they people are trying to steal Christmas. You can’t be in charge and subservient at the same time.
If you are in school now and getting picked on that is horrible and I think everyone here would agree it is not something that should be tolerated, but unfortunately neither I nor anyone else seems to have a good way to stop it. Everyone gets bullied in high school, some more than others for sure, but everyone can understand how that must have felt. As adults now though it is a little disingenuous to act like we are all still being picked on. If your friends constantly make fun of you or something you really love maybe it is time to find new friends. There are more ways than ever to find people who share interests with you that spending time with people who are constantly picking on you makes no sense.
I started a podcast with “Geek” in the title and almost immediately regretted it, but I do think it still means something. Geeks are certainly MORE accepted than they once were, I think largely due to the way technology has impacted our lives, but I think there’s always going to be those who have an identity based on at one time being rejected, and I think it’s a good thing because it drives people to overcome and do great things.
This Sarah Vowell definition of being a nerd sums it up for me: “Being a nerd, which is to say going too far and caring too much about a subject…” As someone who follows things like iFanboy, goes to cons, etc., I think I’m definitely in the going too far/caring too much subject. And that’s never going to be cool.
So I am of two minds here. As a kid it was hard for to read comics because I would have needed them imported into the country and no one ships to my tiny island. As I got older and realised the depth of the comic archive I honestly was too terrified to enter it and it wasn’t until the geek culture exploded into the monster it is today that I decided to take a chance – that and to antagonise a friend of mine who was also entering the comic realm. I found that it was actually easier to get help since everyone I know was tugging along like me completely unsure. That’s good for people who are actually interested in the source material.
On the other hand. it’s being used as another tool to negate actual geekiness – the unbridled joy of just devouring something you love regardless of what it entails. It’s reshaping geekiness in general and selling it back to the people who loved and nurtured the fandom growing up as well as the overzealous masses who want to latch onto the new thing. It bothers me a lot to see people comment on the actors, producers, movie crew -not that they didn’t do a good job mostly – without considering the source and then claiming some highly claimed high spot of geekiness. it’s disheartening but if it allows me to wear my geek apparel without worrying if it’s going to be stolen or destroyed I say ride out the wave.